From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 20:57:05 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 20:56:46 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 05:55:33 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!caen!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca!gwowen From: gwowen@GPU.UTCS.UTORONTO.CA (George Owen) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup? What coup? Message-Id: <9108221832.AA24113@presto.ig.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 17:55:48 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 25 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO >=In article, lmb@sat.com (Larry Blair) says: >Someone else said that my thinking was too Machiavellian. Come on. We're >talking about Russians here! You would rather believe that some pretty crafty >politicians would do so many imbecilic, illogical things than that some pretty >crafty politicians would plan a phony coup that was guaranteed to fail? > ... etc , etc ... >They had no recovery plan. Yeltsen standing in public with `snipers' >surrounding the square? How stupid do you think I am? > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ About as stupid as the plotters.... hey , YOU asked , right ? :-) ... ok, ok , nothing personal. Everyone's entitled to voice their opinion ( ... but you did set yourself up ! ) - G - -- *************************************************************************** * George Owen (gwowen@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca) [ 416-978-1506 ] * * University of Toronto - Computing Services - Toronto , Canada * * * From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 20:59:24 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 20:59:07 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 05:56:50 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!apollo!goykhman_a From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup? What coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug22.183628.11263@apollo.hp.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 18:36:28 GMT References: <1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com> <1991Aug22.012057.7456@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> <1991Aug22.163930.9790@sat.com> Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA Lines: 45 Nntp-Posting-Host: dzoo.ch.apollo.hp.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug22.163930.9790@sat.com> lmb@sat.com (Larry Blair) writes: [deleted] >If you look at all of the absurd mistakes as being intentional it all makes >much more sense. Not only didn't they arrest Yeltsen before taking over (yea, >I know, the head of the KGB knows nothing about coups!), they didn't even cut >off his phone lines. They let the international media continue to operate. >Even Gorbachev was listening to the BBC. They didn't use their elite troops. >They had no recovery plan. Yeltsen standing in public with `snipers' >surrounding the square? How stupid do you think I am? They could not arrest Yeltsin before Gorbachev, that could have alarmed the latter. They chose not to conduct a large scale operation to achieve an element of surprise, and they succeeded. Instead, they chose to concentrate on a few strategic targets at first (Gorbachev, Soviet media, etc.), just as their granddaddies did in October of 1917. They did use their elite troops. They did not need a recovery plan: who could possibly resist the combained forces of the KGB, Army, and Interior Ministry? But when they came out of the Kremlin closet, they soon discovered that (surpise!) they could not even control their elite troops. Within the first few hours, they knew their coup had failed. Given the situation, shutting down the BBC/CNN/etc. and shooting Yeltsin became the least of their concerns: they were desperately looking for a way out. Meanwhile, the troops loyal to the junta, having received no followup orders, were wandering around the Moscow streets. [deleted] >Larry Blair lmb@sat.com {apple,decwrl}!sat!lmb -- Alex Goykhman Hewlett-Packard, Company (OSSD/CSSL) goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com mit-eddie!apollo!goykhman_a Standard disclaimer From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 20:59:59 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 20:59:41 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 05:57:04 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!demos!relcom!news-server From: rust@rust.home.demos.su (Roustem Akhiarov) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: The father of the KGB is threw off ! Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 23:54:58 GMT Sender: news-server@relcom Reply-To: rust@rust.home.demos.su Organization: Steepler Ltd., Moscow. Lines: 9 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Thank you very much for support, friends! Just now I came back from the square near the head office of the KGB. There monument for the Dzerzhinsky (father of the KGB) was threw off! -- Roustem Akhiarov, Steepler Ltd. | Phone: +7 (095) 245-8662 (Office) Internet: rust@hq.demos.su | +7 (095) 153-3408 (Home) P.O.Box 30, Moscow, 103031, USSR | Fax: +7 (095) 245-2194 (voice/data) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:00:37 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:00:18 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 05:57:13 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!mcb From: mcb@presto.ig.com (Michael C. Berch) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Duplicate postings (hopefully) fixed Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 18:57:28 GMT Organization: IntelliGenetics, Inc., Mountain View, California, USA Lines: 12 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO A loop in the Usenet<-->TPS-L gateway appears to have caused duplicate messages to be posted to talk.politics.soviet and the mailing list. I This apparently seems to be due to loss of Message-IDs in the messages mailed from LISTSERV@indycms.iupui.edu. I have attempted to reset the option in the gateway subscription, and this appears successful. Hopefully things have returned to normal on the group/list as well as in the Soviet Union... -- Michael C. Berch mcb@presto.ig.com From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:01:14 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:00:52 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 05:58:47 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!wupost!udel!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!mojo.eng.umd.edu!russotto From: russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Monitoring Email Message-Id: <1991Aug22.191229.12067@eng.umd.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 19:12:29 GMT References: <9108221714.AA20258@presto.ig.com> <9108221735.AA21341@presto.ig.com> Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <9108221735.AA21341@presto.ig.com> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" writes: >On monitoring modems - > It's trivial at 2400 baud and below. I've done it myself to debug >telecommunications software (also hack at some). MNP makes it more >complex, but not all that much - just have to sync up once, and you're >in good shape. > Gets a little more difficult at 9600 as there are more standards. >Still should be easy with proper equipment. How about V.32, where both sides are sending in the same bandwidth, and recover the recieved data by subtracting their own data from it? -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus. Just say NO to police searches and seizures. Make them use force. (not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:02:24 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:02:05 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 05:59:59 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!bbn.com!dgafford From: dgafford@BBN.COM (Durwood Gafford) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Soviet Gays Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 19:55:11 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 5 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In the 'gaynet' forum there is an interest in discussing what it is like to be Gay in the USSR, before Gorby and after Groby. While this subject would probably not be of interest to the majority of folks here, if you're Gay and have any insights into this issue, you're invited to join the 'gaynet' list. Email me for more information. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:02:58 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:02:41 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:00:06 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!indyvax.bitnet!IJBH200 From: IJBH200@indyvax.bitnet (John B Harlan) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Double posting problem fixed Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 20:03:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO The problem with double postings has been diagnosed and treated. Sorry for the brief period of duplication, friends! John List owner/coordinator SCS-L (soc.culture.soviet via ListServ) TPS-L (talk.politics.soviet via ListServ) + + John B Harlan 125 West Marion Street 529 IJBH200@IndyVAX CREN South Bend Indiana 46601 1096 IJBH200@IndyVAX.IUPUI.Edu Internet U S A IVAX::IJBH200 IU Network + + From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:03:35 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:03:18 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:00:19 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!dukemvs.bitnet!SCOTT From: SCOTT@dukemvs.bitnet (Scott Johnson) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: US hypocrites Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 20:01:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 26 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO > The US government has acted very correctly during the Soviet Crisis. However, > I remember when I was in Spain 11 years ago, we had a coup. Alexander Haig sai > that " we do not interfere in internal affairs". Is this not a proof f US > of U.S. hypocrisy when talking about democracy?. Possibly, but remember -- 11 years ago the U.S. was being led by a different President with a different Secretary of State, a different administration, different ideas, and different policies. You can't just accuse the _country_ of hypocrisy because a different leader 11 years down the road had a different policy about coups in other countries or whatever. Now if that coup had occured two years ago and Bush (or Baker, as the case may be) had said "we do not interfere in internal affairs," it WOULD be hypocrisy. But it didn't, and he didn't. --Scott scott@dukemvs.ac.duke.edu scott@dukemvs.bitnet ... Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer, my terminal, or the view out my window are purely coincidental. Any resemblance between the above and my own views is non-deterministic. The question of the existence of views in the absence of anyone to hold them is left as an exercise for the reader. The question of the existence of the reader is left as an exercise for the second god coefficient. (A discussion of non-orthogonal, non-integral polytheism is beyond the scope of this article.) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:04:13 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:03:52 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:00:31 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!oberlin.bitnet!SKS2454 From: SKS2454@oberlin.bitnet ("Acme Industrial Heavy Objects, Inc.") Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: LIVE from the USSR, Day 4 (my last installment) Message-Id: <27E07F6B2C7F001110@OBERLIN.BITNET> Date: 22 Aug 91 20:43:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 44 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Here's a few highlights from today's Vremya broadcast. Sorry I'm not being very systematic today. I was translating simultaneously and couldn't take notes. Besides, it was more fun to just get sucked into the emotion of it all. Ura! The first item was an address from Gorbachev, who said a lot of things you've probably already seen on the news. Good has triumphed over evil, democracy over dictatorship, the bad guys will be punished, etc. The Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR met, with congratulations and applause all 'round. Russian PM Ivan Silaev said Lukyanov was the main ideologue behind the coup and that it was sickening watching him try to tell Gorbachev the opposite. Lukyanov has been arrested. A report that was shot on August 20 but did not air was shown today. It was on the streets of Moscow as people were preparing to defend the Russian Supreme Soviet. An interview with a tank driver who had gone over to Yeltsin's side was included. Of course, all the decrees and orders of the Committee of Eight have been declared null and void. I would like to point out that the anchors for Vremya on August 19-21 were all people who have been in the job for years and are not known to have any personality, much less principles. But today Sergei Medvedev, one of the younger, newer anchors, was on. He is also the author of the report that did not air August 20, and the August 19 report on the people constructing barricades in Moscow, which I was very surprised to see since it painted the Committee in such a bad light, comparing events in Moscow to what happened in Vilnius this January. Kravchenko, the head of central television and radio, and central television and radio in general have come under a lot of criticism for allowing themselves to be used as an instrument of the Committee. As someone who has watched far too much Soviet television over the past two years, I hope this means there are going to be some changes ahead in the broadcast media. Gee, I wish I could be over there celebrating with my friends. If anybody in the Soyuz can find a bottle of champagne, raise a toast from me! Za svobodu! (To freedom!) (ok, it sounds corny, but what the heck) Karen Segar From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:04:49 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:04:30 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:00:37 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!harvunxw.bitnet!nelson_p%harvard From: nelson_p%harvard@harvunxw.bitnet Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: (none) Message-Id: <9108221505.AA24802@xuucp.ch.apollo.hp.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 20:08:57 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 36 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Date: Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:28:31 EDT Subject: electronic revolution To: IH04@untvax.bitnet, TPS-L@indycms.bitnet One of the things we've see in recent years in the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, the PRC, and elsewhere is the tremendous power of *information* when that information can be distributed quickly and broadly with modern technology like video, FAX's, computers, etc. But being able to do that requires the cooperation or incompetence of the authorities in keeping the phones and other communications infrastructure open. The reformers and their supporters might have failed in the recent coup if the authorities had simply shut down the phone system. As a ham radio operator (N1CHJ) I am well aware of the great potential *radio* has in bypassing official communications channels. Hams routinely send messages and run BBS's over the air using such technology as RTTY and packet. It is also possible to send video using either slow-scan (for narrow bandwidths) or fast-scan techniques. The equipment to do all this is not terribly expensive, or big or complicated. A low-end laptop computer, a battery-operated packet controller, and a portable 2M or 10M ham transceiver could provide a mobile, easy to conceal communications center that could get the word out or coordinate communications and resistance in the face of a total government communications shutdown. Do you know if there is any group or organization interested in raising money to supply such technology to countries where there is a struggle or potential struggle for freedom? If we could disseminate this kind of equipment broadly we could do a lot for freedom and democracy. ---Peter From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:05:27 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:05:08 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:01:37 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!news.bbn.com!mips2!granite!rivard From: rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com (Dennis Rivard) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <1991Aug22.184515.22159@granite.ma30.bull.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 18:45:15 GMT References: <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com> Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc. Lines: 22 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com> galt@scratchy.dsd.es.com (Greg Alt - Perp) writes: > >One interesting thing that I noticed is that Bush has been praising Yeltsin, >saying that Yeltsin stopped the coup. He has yet to praise the Russian people >who are the real reason Gorbachev is back. Leaders like to think that the >only important people are the leaders, but in this case it was the millions >of people who opposed the coup that should be praised the most. Also, the >reports that the coup "collapsed" are a little annoying... It was SMASHED by >the people... I agree, the PEOPLE won the coup... However, Just this morning, I heard Bush congratulating the Soviet people for stopping the coup... I'm not sure when it was taped, but he definately said it... (I think I heard it on CNN) -- School:drivard@cs.ulowell.edu | Those who know/What's best for us/| Work: rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com | Must rise and save us from | My opinions are my own. | ourselves. - "Witch Hunt" Rush | From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:06:00 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:05:43 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 08:55:42 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!unido!unidui!math.fu-berlin.de!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!olivea!apple!apple.com!singer From: singer@apple.com (Dave Singer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <15745@goofy.Apple.COM> Date: 22 Aug 91 20:11:59 GMT Sender: usenet@Apple.COM Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 25 References: <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com> Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka J Taipale) writes: > Of course, the support of the Russian People for democracy was the key > factor in overthrowing the coup. > > But I 'm pretty sure that if there had not been a charismatic leader > such as Yeltsin, to take responsibility, to claim leadership, to make > convincing speeches, to have a concrete place for the masses to defend > (the Russian Federation parlament house), I doubt the resistance to > the coup would have been succesful. Indeed an interview I heard on NPR with a muscovite lady ran "We had a cause; we had a leader. They had no cause; they had no leader. They lost." I am delighted for the Soviet people; these events have snapped the thread of fatalism that has run through their politics for many decades. The people decided on action, and prevailed. They have determined that they can be agents, not pawns. The belief that with will-power, a cause, and leadership, they can accomplish what they will, will have more effect than anything else in the long slow dismantling of the mechanisms of oligarchic tyranny, repression, and poverty. * * * * * To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags -- that is a loyalty of unreason, it is pure animal (Mark Twain). From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:06:37 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:06:20 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 08:55:46 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!occ.bitnet!DASAM From: DASAM@occ.bitnet (David Sam) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: (none) Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 21:45:22 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 12 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO *** Reply to note of 08/22/91 18:45 Subject: Re:Great Going, Bush! To Geg Alt: As much as I hate to defend George Bush, he has said that it was the "will of the people" and has indeed congratulated the Soviet people severaltimes now. I have never made my mind up as to how much the leader leads, the Romantic conception, and how much the leader rides the wave of history, Hegelian style. David Sam DASAM@OCC From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 21:07:13 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:06:52 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 08:57:11 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!milano!cadillac!pebbles!ned From: ned@pebbles.cad.mcc.com (Ned Nowotny) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Irresolute Coup? Message-Id: <24131@cadillac.CAD.MCC.COM> Date: 22 Aug 91 19:02:13 GMT References: <1991Aug20.100459.20092@newshost.anu.edu.au> <38354@mimsy.umd.edu> <1991Aug20.151108.21838@newshost.anu.edu.au> Sender: news@cadillac.CAD.MCC.COM Reply-To: ned%cad@MCC.COM (Ned Nowotny) Organization: MCC CAD Program, Austin, TX Lines: 12 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug20.151108.21838@newshost.anu.edu.au> cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) writes: =>(BTW, I prefer to use the terminology adopted by demonstrators =>against the coup in the Soviet Union, who refer to the coup as "fascist" =>rather than "communist"). => Why not use "totalitarian" and cover both? Ned Nowotny, MCC CAD Program, Box 200195, Austin, TX 78720 Ph: (512) 338-3715 ARPA: ned@mcc.com UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!milano!cadillac!ned ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We have ways to make you scream." - Intel advertisement in the June 1989 DDJ. Fri Aug 23 21:07:48 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 21:07:29 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 08:57:58 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!helios!pooh!steve From: steve@pooh.tamu.edu (Steve Rikli) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: traveling to the USSR Message-Id: <20567@helios.TAMU.EDU> Date: 22 Aug 91 21:18:14 GMT Sender: usenet@helios.TAMU.EDU Organization: College of Architecture, Texas A&M University. Lines: 9 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Can anyone tell me the current details/restrictions/advisories on travelling to the USSR in the next week or so? I know the U.S. State Dept. had issued an advisory not to travel there, but I would think it would have been lifted by now. Anyone have more current news? -- || Steve Rikli ||| Visualization Lab || || steve@archone.tamu.edu ||| Texas A&M University || || (409) 845-5691 ||| College Station, TX 77843-3137 || Fri Aug 23 21:08:20 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; , +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 08:58:27 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!wupost!ukma!dftsrv!croten From: croten@ltpsun.dftsrv (Charles D. Roten) Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: The Coup is collapsing!!! Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 04:35:03 GMT References: <28CB1187D91F6001C0@UBVMS.BITNET> <1991Aug21.161052.28530@ctr.columbia.edu> Sender: news@dftsrv.gsfc.nasa.gov Organization: /home/croten/.organization Lines: 85 In-Reply-To: yu@ctr.columbia.edu's message of 21 Aug 91 16:10:52 GMT Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk This reply is being crossposted to TPS for interested netters there. In article <1991Aug21.161052.28530@ctr.columbia.edu> yu@ctr.columbia.edu (Yanbin Yu) writes: In article <28CB1187D91F6001C0@UBVMS.BITNET> BPRNINGL@UBVMS.BITNET writes: > > The Coup Is Collapsing !!! > > Tune in for more news! > > History often repeats itself, but the first time is tragedy, > the second time will be comedy. > > The world is turning. An era is indeed ended. A more >dynamic era has begun. Maybe this time Russian people did some excllent jobs, and Chinese people should learn form them. Yeah, the Russian people, particularly Boris Yeltsin and Anatoli Sobchak (mayor of Lenningrad), did a magnificent and splendid job. However, let's remember the *INCREDIBLY* stupid job done by the junta. I was frankly amazed by their incompetence. I think the remark about comedy is *extremely* apt. Those guys were funnier than the Three Stooges, though I was too apprehensive to appreciate the comedic aspect of the coup attempt at the time. A marvelous book about how a coup should be run is Edward Luttwak's 'Coup D'Etat' (1968). A cursory reading of this work reveals the incredibly poor planning of the junta at every stage of the abortive coup. Consider the following *dumb* moves on the part of the plotters. 1) Yeltsin should have been arrested at the same time as Gorby. He was an obvious focus for resistance to the coup, and had a personal stake in its downfall. He also had a name as an effective and popular politician. No serious attempt was made for more than a day to take him into custody. That is *amazing*!! 2) The plotters did not make *sure* of the loyalties of the military commanders who were tasked with the various aspects of government seizure. *DUMB*!! Any semi-literate African or Central American general would have done that! In the event, if CNN is to be believed, the commander tasked with moving into Lenningrad simply disobeyed his orders, refusing to enter the city with his tanks. As a result, the junta did not have so much as a pot to p*ss in, in Lenningrad. 3) The plotters did not take sufficient care to sound out the leanings of military units not to be involved in the seizure, and disable those whose loyalty to the Gorbachov/Yeltsin faction and/or democratic processes was strong. This is a *basic* precaution. As most of you know, the 'Taman' tank division (an elite formation) as well as two others quartered near Moscow declared for (and *aided*) Yeltsin, a *VERY* serious setback for the junta. This mistake was *critical*. If Yeltsin had been bagged, the whole resistance might have crumbled. 4) The plotters did not adequately secure the means of communication. Thus, Yeltsin's declaration of the legitimacy of his government and the illegitimacy of the junta's was allowed to get out to the Russian people, setting the stage for the coup's ultimate failure. Also, the progress of the resistance to the coup was allowed to not merely leak, but gush to the sympathetic West. Those turkeys did not even secure the *phone* *exchanges*!! Thus, phone calls and email poured out of the SU. Even a imbecilic would-be Latin American dictator would do a better job than that! (Sorry for the insult to the domestic turkey. Maybe I should have said 'marine invertibrates'.) Almost every possible key aspect of the planning for a coup was botched. I have the greatest honor and respect for the courage and determination of the Russian people, and in particular for Boris Yeltsin, who IMO is the father of democratic legitimacy in the SU (as a result of his brave, timely and brilliant stand during the dark night of the coup). However, IMO the obituary of Communism in the SU should read 'died of self-inflicted wounds'. Isn't it nice when the enemy we feared so much turns out to be a pack of prize idiots? -- Charles Roten | STX, Incorporated | The Communist Party of the USSR net: croten@ltpsun.gsfc.nasa.gov | Born October 24, 1917 mail: 4400 Forbes Blvd., Lanham, MD 20706 | Died August 21, 1991 phone: 301-794-5410 (w), 301-317-0872 (h) | Rest In Peace Fri Aug 23 21:08:53 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; , +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 08:58:34 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!midway!gsbsun!bdh From: bdh@gsbsun.uchicago.edu (Brian D. Howard) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Pugo Message-Id: <1991Aug22.210851.15162@midway.uchicago.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 21:08:51 GMT Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (NewsMistress) Organization: University of Chicago Lines: 12 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Pugo walks into the devil's office to voice his complaint. "I thought you said if I sold you my soul I could grab power," says he. "Yes?" replies the devil. "Well, look what happened!" complains Pugo. "Oh, you wanted to *keep* power." replies the devil. -- "Old age and treachery will overcome youth and talent." Fri Aug 23 21:09:29 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; , +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 08:59:20 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!apollo!goykhman_a From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Why the coup failed: a look back. Message-Id: <1991Aug22.214329.17812@apollo.hp.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 21:43:29 GMT Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA Lines: 28 Nntp-Posting-Host: dzoo.ch.apollo.hp.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk In article <1991Aug22.182756.5132@athena.mit.edu> dks@athena.mit.edu (Dhanesh K Samarasan) writes: >In article <1991Aug22.154442.5019@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes: [deleted] >>Finally, employing the Interior Ministry's "Savage Division" >>(muslems with AK47s) to quell the unrest would have > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ^ > This, I suppose, is analysis... No, just a fact of life in the SU. They are the backbone of the Interior Ministry troops: young, male, muslem, speak little Russian, obedient, ferocious (they don't call them "Savage Division" for nothing), invalueable as GULAG guards, trained to quell civilian unrest. AK47 is about as much of a weapon as they get entrusted. [deleted] >Dhanesh -- Alex Goykhman Hewlett-Packard, Company (OSSD/CSSL) goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com mit-eddie!apollo!goykhman_a Standard disclaimer