From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:00:59 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:00:42 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:16:35 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!apollo!goykhman_a From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Why the coup failed: a look back. Message-Id: <1991Aug22.154442.5019@apollo.hp.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 15:44:42 GMT Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA Lines: 68 Originator: goykhman_a@dzoo Nntp-Posting-Host: dzoo.ch.apollo.hp.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO The theory of the day is that it was the "power of the people" that made the coup fail. But did it really? I do not think so. The number of people demonstrating in Moscow this time was by an order of magnitude smaller then earlier this year. Only a quarter of all coal mines went on strike, much fewer than the last time when they were demanding that the Gorbachev resigned. I got a clue yesterday evening watching a CNN interview with Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee D. Boren, and Soviet journalist Yakushkin. Mr. Boren indicated the coup was plotted behind the closed doors by a group of hardliners so small, it was practically impossible to penetrate, and that was why the coup was a surprise. The plotters apparently presumed they would have no major problem with their subordinates not obeying the orders. Mr. Yakushkin stressed the importance of information coming on the waves of Voice of America and the likes. He also said that, because the plotters cut off the usual information channels, the public in Moscow was in the dark during the first day of the cue, they did not know what exactly was going on, where Yeltsin was, if alive, etc. Now, remember the first press-conference that the plotters gave six hours after the coup began? Remember those grim faces, and Mr. Yanaev mumbling something that Gorbachev might still return to power? The "power of the people" was not there yet, but those folks already knew they failed. What happened? It could have been only one thing... At the time of the press-conference the plotters already knew something that the rest of us learned only days later: the Soviet elite troops were slow to obey the orders, and some of them even defected to the other side. And, they had not been ordered to shoot into the crowd yet! The plotters suddenly faced an unpleasant dilemma. Ordering the loyal troops to crash the renegades carried a risk a full scale civil war with both sides having access to nuclear weapons. There was too much bad blood between the Army and the KGB to bring the KGB troops into action. (remember what happened to the Securitate?). Finally, employing the Interior Ministry's "Savage Division" (muslems with AK47s) to quell the unrest would have produced an enormous backlash from the Russian-controlled Army. I do not want in any way to diminish the personal courage of the tens of thousands of Moscovites who put their lives on the line in the name of continueing reform, but they were not the major reason the coup has failed. Rather, it was the plotters suprising inablity to control the Soviet repressive machine that doomed their effort. And that is why we did not see a Tiannamen-style massacre unfolding in Moscow, and throughout the SU. -- Alex Goykhman Hewlett-Packard, Company (OSSD/CSSL) goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com mit-eddie!apollo!goykhman_a Standard disclaimer From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:01:38 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:01:21 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:17:58 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!mantis!mathew From: mathew@mantis.co.uk (Industrial Poet) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet Subject: Monitoring Email Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 11:36:08 GMT Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK. Lines: 33 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In <1991Aug21.192714.2542@newshost.anu.edu.au> cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) writes: >I will not be replying by email and have deleted all lines indicating >the email address from the header. (This has nothing to do with >the well meaning but naive pronouncements that have been made about >"safety" - as though the relevant authorities do not monitor ALL >telecommunications traffic from the Soviet Union!) It is my belief that it is extremely difficult to usefully monitor a modem connection; that is, you can tap the telephone line, but to get useful data from it is distinctly awkward. To a certain extent it depends upon the modems and software used; if the modems dynamically adjust their transmission to take account of line quality changes and faults, then there's quite a bit of state tied up at both ends of the connection, so someone sitting in the middle and listening isn't going to have much fun trying to decode the noise even if he catches the start of the conversation. Also, if compression is used then missing any bit of the transmission will make the rest difficult to recover. The more you miss, the harder it is. And that's assuming you know exactly what protocols are being used. If any monitoring goes on, I think it would really have to be done on the machines storing and forwarding the mail. Of course, the real solution is to get public key cryptosystems installed at both ends, just in case there's another (better organized) coup. mathew From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:02:54 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:02:34 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:18:20 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!udel!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!mojo.eng.umd.edu!russotto From: russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: USSR's seat in UN Message-Id: <1991Aug22.155320.10151@eng.umd.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 15:53:20 GMT References: <9108211413.AA19342@crystal.wrc.xerox.com> Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park Lines: 13 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <9108211413.AA19342@crystal.wrc.xerox.com> haoxu@wrc.xerox.com (Hao xu) writes: >My friend told me every republic of USSR has a seat in UN. He also told me >USA never accepted these republics as a part of USSR. I can't believe it. >Could anyone here tell me the truth? Not true-- I believe there are a three USSR representatives, not one from every republic (I think Byleorussia has one, for example). The US recognizes all the republics except Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia as part of the USSR. -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus. Just say NO to police searches and seizures. Make them use force. (not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:03:32 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:03:15 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:18:56 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!olivea!apple!sat!lmb From: lmb@sat.com (Larry Blair) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup? What coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug22.163930.9790@sat.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 16:39:30 GMT References: <1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com> <1991Aug22.012057.7456@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Organization: SAT Corp., Sunnyvale, CA Lines: 49 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug22.012057.7456@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> aq039@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (David A. Johnson) writes: = =In a previous article, lmb@sat.com (Larry Blair) says: = =>Pretty slick, that Gorbachev. In one fell swoop he eliminated his old guard =>opposition, renewed his popular backing, and made a saint out of his `opponent' =>(who happens to have the same aims). Even the Baltic republics are sounding =>more conciliatory. Check and mate! => =>If you doubt any of this, consider how head of the KGB, the army, and the =>Supreme Soviet (all of whom were never actually seen) could be stupid enough =>to run a coup so disorganized that they didn't even bother to arrest their =>prime opponent before taking over. =>-- =>Larry Blair lmb@sat.com {apple,decwrl}!sat!lmb = =Well, you may be right. Perhaps the Coup leaders would want to spend =the remainder of their lives in jail for the sake of Gorby, however, if =you are going to convince mr of this then you will need to provide facts =that I can believe. You are assuming that all eight members of the `committee' were in on this. I would strongly suspect that the five who appeared in public were taken in. One of the purposes of the `coup' was to draw out those who would participate in such a thing. I'll be rather surprised if there are PUBLIC executions of any of the _real_ leaders, although given the Russian mentality anything is possible. Someone else said that my thinking was too Machiavellian. Come on. We're talking about Russians here! You would rather believe that some pretty crafty politicians would do so many imbecilic, illogical things than that some pretty crafty politicians would plan a phony coup that was guaranteed to fail? If you look at all of the absurd mistakes as being intentional it all makes much more sense. Not only didn't they arrest Yeltsen before taking over (yea, I know, the head of the KGB knows nothing about coups!), they didn't even cut off his phone lines. They let the international media continue to operate. Even Gorbachev was listening to the BBC. They didn't use their elite troops. They had no recovery plan. Yeltsen standing in public with `snipers' surrounding the square? How stupid do you think I am? I reiterate: this was a master stroke. Gorbachev and his people have proven themselves to be the greatest political strategists of this century. If you really want to pursue an interesting discussion consider who was in on it. Was Yeltsen in on it or was this a test? Was Pavlov? These are the real questions. it and who wasn't -- Larry Blair lmb@sat.com {apple,decwrl}!sat!lmb From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:05:53 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:05:35 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:20:45 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!samsung!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!ucbvax!SUN4.JHUAPL.EDU!jwm From: jwm@SUN4.JHUAPL.EDU (James W. Meritt) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Russian Message-Id: <9108221651.AA20991@sun4.jhuapl.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 16:51:43 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Lines: 6 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Could some phrase ("russian language" or such) be placed in the header of the posts to differentiate the ones with english content? It is clear that there are russian-speaking people in the rest of the world, but there are also non-russian speaking people interested in developments. Thank you. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:07:43 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:07:26 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:21:46 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!uunet!bil From: bil@uunet.uu.net (Igor Belchinskiy) Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Stop double postings Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 17:43:34 GMT References: <9108221653.AA19252@presto.ig.com> Organization: UUNET Communications Services Lines: 12 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO from this day many articles in both s.c.p and t.p.s has duplicate with different path please set mail servers (or whatever is the reason) to stop doubles these doubles reminds doubles from 'monday stars at satturday' by Strugackie :-) -- --Igor Belchinskiy bil@uunet.uu.net Here and now. --UUNET Technologies, Inc. +1(703)876-5050 From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:08:19 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:07:58 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:22:00 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!gwowen From: gwowen@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (George Owen) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup? What coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug22.175548.7840@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> Date: 22 Aug 91 17:55:48 GMT Organization: UTCS Public Access Lines: 25 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO >=In article, lmb@sat.com (Larry Blair) says: >Someone else said that my thinking was too Machiavellian. Come on. We're >talking about Russians here! You would rather believe that some pretty crafty >politicians would do so many imbecilic, illogical things than that some pretty >crafty politicians would plan a phony coup that was guaranteed to fail? > ... etc , etc ... >They had no recovery plan. Yeltsen standing in public with `snipers' >surrounding the square? How stupid do you think I am? > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ About as stupid as the plotters.... hey , YOU asked , right ? :-) ... ok, ok , nothing personal. Everyone's entitled to voice their opinion ( ... but you did set yourself up ! ) - G - -- *************************************************************************** * George Owen (gwowen@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca) [ 416-978-1506 ] * * University of Toronto - Computing Services - Toronto , Canada * * * From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:08:53 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:08:36 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:22:08 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!sci.ccny.cuny.edu!dsndata!unlinfo.unl.edu!nolan From: nolan@helios.unl.edu (Michael Nolan) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Contacting the News People & Local Media Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 23:50:46 GMT References: Sender: news@unlinfo.unl.edu Reply-To: nolan@helios.unl.edu Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln Lines: 13 Nntp-Posting-Host: helios.unl.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO IPWP400@indycms.bitnet (phil paxton) writes: >How is everyone handling the fact that a line is indeed running out >of the USSR and that information is available? I know of at least >one (I'm sure the others would drool at the chance) local station >interested in obtaining as much information as possible regarding >what is going on and still providing anonymity. In fact I was on the phone for 1/2 hour this afternoon to a reporter for one of the local newspapers, and some of what USENET had he didn't have! Michael Nolan nolan@helios.unl.edu From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:10:06 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:09:46 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:22:46 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!think.com!samsung!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!caen!news.cs.indiana.edu!msi.umn.edu!umeecs!colonial.eecs.umich.edu!boyd From: boyd@colonial.eecs.umich.edu (Eric Boyd) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: USSR's seat in UN Message-Id: <1991Aug22.172110.26424@zip.eecs.umich.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 17:21:10 GMT References: <9108211413.AA19342@crystal.wrc.xerox.com> <1991Aug22.155320.10151@eng.umd.edu> Sender: usenet@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Mr. News) Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept. Lines: 11 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I thought the USSR had three seats - one for Russia + - one for Ukraine - and one for Belorussia (sp?) I could be wrong, but I know that Stalin demanded the extra seats when the UN was formed (not because he saw the republics as independent - just to get more votes in the General Assembly and to send even more of his people into the USA). From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:10:42 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:10:24 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:35:16 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!cornell!vax5.cit.cornell.edu!s34y From: s34y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: US hypocrites Message-Id: <1991Aug22.123519.6995@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 16:35:19 GMT Distribution: talk Organization: CIT, Cornell University Lines: 4 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO The US government has acted very correctly during the Soviet Crisis. However, I remember when I was in Spain 11 years ago, we had a coup. Alexander Haig said that " we do not interfere in internal affairs". Is this not a proof of US hypocrisy when talking about democracy?. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:11:16 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:10:57 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:35:26 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!cat.syr.edu!anderson From: anderson@CAT.SYR.EDU (Joseph Anderson) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Monitoring Email Message-Id: <9108221725.AA20778@presto.ig.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 17:16:48 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 7 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Public key encryptions can be "adjucted" by the monitors. Isn't just simple enought to use the first line of a poem or something as an algorithm for deciphering and simply keep changing the poem over a specified period of time. That way only the sender and recipient know? anderson@cat.syr.edu From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:12:24 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:12:05 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 04:35:25 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!sdd.hp.com!wupost!uwm.edu!bionet!ig!ms.uky.edu!phoenix From: phoenix@ms.uky.edu Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Monitoring Email Message-Id: <9108221735.AA21341@presto.ig.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 17:30:47 GMT References: <9108221714.AA20258@presto.ig.com> Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 13 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO On monitoring modems - It's trivial at 2400 baud and below. I've done it myself to debug telecommunications software (also hack at some). MNP makes it more complex, but not all that much - just have to sync up once, and you're in good shape. Gets a little more difficult at 9600 as there are more standards. Still should be easy with proper equipment. - R'ykandar. -- R'ykandar Korra'ti | Editor, LOW ORBIT Science and Fiction "I hate you, you timepiece from Hades." - Plucky Duck phoenix@ms.uky.edu | editor@lorbit.UUCP | sumax!polari!lorbit!editor From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:12:59 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:12:42 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 04:35:36 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!ifi.uio.no!geirha From: geirha@ifi.uio.no (Geir Egil Hauge) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: HELPING THE SOVIET ECONOMY Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 20:04:28 GMT Sender: geirha@ifi.uio.no (Geir Egil Hauge) Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 73 Nntp-Posting-Host: holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no Originator: geirha@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO A very actual question now is: How can we help Soviet to get their ecomomy up from the ditch? - Is it a solution to give them food? - Is it a solution to lend them much money? No, I don't think so. It would make Soviet a third world country, and we have already helped the third world countries in beeing third world countries for a pretty long time. But we can help Soviet to get their communication-systems to function properly. - To make their ecomomy blossom, they need urgent help with: - telecommunications - post-system - transport-system How could small private companies get in touch with small western companies for export, import, and cooperation, when they have to call 100 times to get through the AWFUL Soviet telephone-system? That awful telephone-system have to be modernized, and we can help them. We have the technology. And we must let them take part in the ISDN race and couple their telephone-system so tight to the western countries that vultures forever cannot break the connection. Small companies in Soviet don't have economy to buy a telex. And small companies in west do only use fax and telephone, and may not find it economical to buy a telex just for communication with Soviet. (One need a proper telephone-system to communicate by fax, - telex do not use the telephone-network). And what about the post-system? AWFUL twice. Airmail from Oslo to Leningrad take from 1 to 2 months. - It is faster to roll the airmail in a wheelbarrow. And often packets with goods are stolen. It's so usual that the soviet people do not send a complaint to the postoffice. One can meet with recommande packets beeing opened and the goods changed with worn or damaged goods. Did the friends in west send some second-hand goods? Did they wrap up the goods properly? To find this out, they have to make contact: ask questions and get answers... This may take half a year due to poor knowledge about the foreign language, the tortoise-airmail, and because they are unable to reach us by phone. Of course directors in western companies freeze with only the thought to use this post-system. The socalled EMS-postsystem could be used, but it is very expensive, especially for small companies. We must help Soviet to get a post-system that function properly. Also the transport-system has to get modernized. In Soviet a lorry-driver has to be a car-mechanician AND a lorry-driver. Their lorries could be sold as veteran-lorries here in west. Conclution: Soviet need urgent help with the telephone-, post- and transport- systems inside their country and across their borders. This would act as oil to smear their economical system whether they choose a fast or slow way to the market economy. As a final wish: Soviet must become a member of NATO, and NATO must be tightly bound to the UN. This could make our earth secure for thousands of years. People that have their work in NATO don't need to worry about their jobs. There are enough work to be done by saving our earth from possible enemies from the space. It seems unlikely that we're the only intelligent civilization in the universe. Visitors from the space could be just as warlike as us, and even worse. --- Geir Egil Hauge, student at the Institute for Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway. e-mail: geirha@ifi.uio.no From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:13:39 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:13:20 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 04:35:55 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!samsung!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!stable.ecn.purdue.edu!muttiah From: muttiah@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Ranjan S Muttiah) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Why the coup failed: a look back. Message-Id: <1991Aug22.173456.17154@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 17:34:56 GMT References: <9108221610.AA17122@presto.ig.com> Sender: root@noose.ecn.purdue.edu (ECN System Management) Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network Lines: 40 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <9108221610.AA17122@presto.ig.com> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" writes: >The theory of the day is that it was the "power of the >people" that made the coup fail. But did it really? It would have eventually. Surely the people would have realized that the coup plotters were only trying to save themselves and not for some grandiose "benefit of the country". >Mr. Boren indicated the coup was plotted behind the closed >doors by a group of hardliners so small, it was practically >impossible to penetrate, and that was why the coup was a >surprise. The plotters apparently presumed they would >have no major problem with their subordinates not obeying >the orders. I wonder how many of the plotters had real military training. The coup had all the faults of failing from its inception. 1. Coup on a work day ? Coups are best on Fridays. 2. They didn't prosecute their possible opponents. Ex., Yeltsin. [Unless they thought that Gorbochev was that popular with the people. Which is very doubtful since they expected the people to be ambivalent about the take over.] 3. Didn't cut off connections with the outside world. >[...] >Rather, it was the plotters suprising inablity to control >the Soviet repressive machine that doomed their effort. > >And that is why we did not see a Tiannamen-style massacre >unfolding in Moscow, and throughout the SU. > In addition to what you have said, the plotters were also playing by the old rules. The Army I believe pledges allegiance to the communist party and the communist party played no part in this coup. In fact if the communist party had had a hand to play, the military would have split in half. Compare this to the Tinnamen square situation. The communist party felt threatened and they ordered the crackdown. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:14:17 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:13:55 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 04:36:06 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!ox.com!caen!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!neon.Stanford.EDU!Neon!jmc From: jmc@DEC-Lite.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 15:47:43 GMT References: <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com> <1991Aug22.151635.5323@convex.com> Sender: news@neon.Stanford.EDU (USENET News System) Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University Lines: 18 In-Reply-To: jhyde@convex.COM's message of 22 Aug 91 15:16:35 GMT Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I agree entirely about the role of Yeltsin. He's a great politician and a very smart one. He certainly picked for a Vice-President someone who gave his administration credibility exactly where it turned out to be necessary. I'll bet Col. Rutskoi made a substantial difference in convincing military officers and soldiers to disobey Yazov. As for Bush, he did what he could in the right direction. It wasn't much, because the U.S. must avoid any direct intervention in Soviet politics. However, refusing recognition on the grounds that the coup was illegal and stating a belief that it wouldn't hold up was within the discretion of a foreign country and surely at least helped keep waverers wavering. -- Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everybody in good society holds exactly the same opinions. - Oscar Wilde John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305 From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:17:13 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:16:52 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 04:37:32 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!hybrid!scifi!watson!arnor!news From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: COUP HAS FAILED !!!! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.170005.10940@watson.ibm.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 17:00:05 GMT Sender: news@watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster) Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Lines: 7 Nntp-Posting-Host: oleg Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO ABC, NBC, CNN all all reporting that KGB troops are withdrawing from Moscow with Eltsin troops in pursuit, that the committee members fled the Moscow, that Gorbachev is expected to be in Moscow in matter of couple hours. Also, unconfirmed report of suicide of Yazov. Oleg Vishnepolsky From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:17:47 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:17:28 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 04:37:40 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!crdgw1!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!hybrid!scifi!watson!arnor!news From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Report of "emergency committee" members fleeing Moscow Message-Id: <1991Aug21.153903.7275@watson.ibm.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 15:39:03 GMT Sender: news@watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster) Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Lines: 8 Nntp-Posting-Host: oleg Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO CNN's correspondents in Moscow reported that the eight members of the emergency committee tried to fly out of Moscow, and that President Eltsin issued an order to stop them. It may be too early to open bottles of champagne yet, but the sign is very encouraging. Oleg Vishnepolsky From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:18:26 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:18:05 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 04:38:06 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!demos!relcom!news-server From: dimitri@inzer.demos.su (Dimitri Rakitin) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Dzerjinsky Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 20:31:51 GMT Sender: news-server@relcom Reply-To: dimitri@inzer.demos.su Organization: Steepler Ltd. Lines: 13 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Hi there! We just returned from Lybanskya square. Dzerjinsky (first chief of KGB) monument will be destroyed app. after 3 hrs. Central and Moscow CPSU Commitee buildings (Staraya square) are locked by police troops to prevent destroying of party archives and documents. -- Dimitri I. Rakitin, Steepler Ltd. | Phone: +7 (095) 245-8662 (Office) Internet: dimitri@inzer.demos.su | +7 (095) 147-1062 (Home) P.O.Box 30, Moscow, 103031, USSR | Fax: +7 (095) 245-2194 (voice/data) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:18:59 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:18:42 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 04:38:18 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!orca!scratchy!galt From: galt@scratchy.dsd.es.com (Greg Alt - Perp) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <1991Aug22.192734.20293@dsd.es.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 19:27:34 GMT References: <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com> <1991Aug22.151635.5323@convex.com> Sender: galt@scratchy (Greg Alt - Perp) Followup-To: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT Lines: 27 Nntp-Posting-Host: 130.187.85.107 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug22.151635.5323@convex.com>, jhyde@convex.COM (John C. Hyde) writes: > For these reasons, Yeltsin and the Russian people succeeded, while the > (still to this day) disorganized band of students at Tienammon Square > in China failed. Actually, using the comparison of China, there were a lot of interesting differences that helped. The soldiers in Russia were Russian, not from some other part of the country. The soldiers knew what was going on. (in China, the soldiers were isolated for weeks before going to Beijing) In China, the government was supported by the peasants, because of the reforms of Deng Xiao Ping (sp?), while the peasants in the Soviet Union probably liked the reforms of Gorbachev. The Chinese government had legal legitimacy, while the coup did not. The Coup was reactionary, and the Russians had already seen reforms, while in China, the government was only conservative, and the people did not see the kinds of reforms that were in the Soviet Union. (this is an important ingredient for social movements) Also, the demands of the Russians were mostly conservative, while the demands of the Chinese were radical. That's all I can think off the top of my head. Any other differences that made this a success? By looking at the reasons for success, we can learn for future movements. I would assume many governments are studying this for similar reasons... From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:20:15 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:19:54 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 04:38:33 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!icd.ab.com!iccgcc.decnet.ab.com!herrickd From: herrickd@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: U.S. ambassador to the USSR Message-Id: <1991Aug22.150316.5453@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 20:03:16 GMT References: <1991Aug20.025853.2321@unixland.natick.ma.us> <1991Aug20.042858.12432@novell.com> <1991Aug20.123610.7039@unixland.natick.ma.us> Lines: 12 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug20.123610.7039@unixland.natick.ma.us>, sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes: > about it; perhaps even Saddam Hussein believed a similar thing based on the > signals he believes he got from the U.S. ambassador before invading Kuwait). > Didn't the New York Times report before the invasion of Kuwait that our ambassador to Iran told Saddam that the US was not concerned about a border dispute between Iran and Kuwait? Of course, there is no real reason to believe there was a misunderstanding or mistake involved. dan herrick dlh@NCoast.org From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 06:20:48 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 06:20:31 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 04:38:43 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!dks From: dks@athena.mit.edu (Dhanesh K Samarasan) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Why the coup failed: a look back. Message-Id: <1991Aug22.182756.5132@athena.mit.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 18:27:56 GMT References: <1991Aug22.154442.5019@apollo.hp.com> Sender: news@athena.mit.edu (News system) Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 28 Nntp-Posting-Host: e40-008-10.mit.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug22.154442.5019@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes: >The theory of the day is that it was the "power of the >people" that made the coup fail. But did it really? > >I do not think so. The number of people demonstrating >in Moscow this time was by an order of magnitude smaller ..... >The plotters suddenly faced an unpleasant dilemma. >Ordering the loyal troops to crash the renegades carried >a risk a full scale civil war with both sides having >access to nuclear weapons. There was too much bad blood >between the Army and the KGB to bring the KGB troops into >action. (remember what happened to the Securitate?). >Finally, employing the Interior Ministry's "Savage Division" >(muslems with AK47s) to quell the unrest would have ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ This, I suppose, is analysis... Just when you think the human species has a chance, some brilliant realist tells you where to get off. When will I learn? Dhanesh