From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:22:03 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:21:46 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:28:55 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aq039 From: aq039@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (David A. Johnson) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup? What coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug22.012057.7456@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 01:20:57 GMT References: <1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com> Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Reply-To: aq039@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (David A. Johnson) Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 28 Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns10.ins.cwru.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In a previous article, lmb@sat.com (Larry Blair) says: >Pretty slick, that Gorbachev. In one fell swoop he eliminated his old guard >opposition, renewed his popular backing, and made a saint out of his `opponent' >(who happens to have the same aims). Even the Baltic republics are sounding >more conciliatory. Check and mate! > >If you doubt any of this, consider how head of the KGB, the army, and the >Supreme Soviet (all of whom were never actually seen) could be stupid enough >to run a coup so disorganized that they didn't even bother to arrest their >prime opponent before taking over. >-- >Larry Blair lmb@sat.com {apple,decwrl}!sat!lmb Well, you may be right. Perhaps the Coup leaders would want to spend the remainder of their lives in jail for the sake of Gorby, however, if you are going to convince mr of this then you will need to provide facts that I can believe. Dave > -- "If we deny love that is given to us, if we refuse to give love because we fear the pain of loss, then our lives will be empty, our loss greater." -Tanis Half-Elven (from DragonLance) aq039@cleveland.freenet.edu Dave Johnson From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:22:44 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:22:26 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:29:19 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!ig!untvax.bitnet!IH04 From: IH04@untvax.bitnet Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Yeltsin bio Message-Id: <01G9NIEI4TIO0006R1@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 00:56:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 21 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Yeltsin, Boris (yel'-tseen) Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin, a popular and outspoken Soviet politician, was elected executive president of the Russian republic on June 13, 1991. He became the first democratically elected president in Russia's history. Yeltsin was born on Feb. 1, 1931, in a village in the Sverdlovsk district near the Ural Mountains. He studied engineering and construction and worked his way up the Communist party hierarchy. Brought to Moscow from Sverdlovsk by Mikhail Gorbachev, Yeltsin became (December 1985) head of the Moscow Communist party organization, but was removed from that post when he broke with Gorbachev in 1987. In 1989 he made a spectacular comeback when he was elected a delegate to the Congress of People's Deputies. After building an independent political base for himself, he resigned (1990) from the Communist party. As head of the Russian republic and chairman of the Russian parliament, Yeltsin is a forceful advocate of change and rivals Gorbachev among the leaders of the USSR. The Russian republic, one of 15 in the Soviet Union, includes three-quarters of the territory of the USSR, one-half of its population, and a large percentage of its natural resources. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:23:20 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:23:00 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:29:39 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!IQTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Yeltsin bio Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 01:04:26 GMT References: Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 17 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO On Wed, 21 Aug 1991 19:56:00 CDT said: >Yeltsin, Boris >(yel'-tseen) > >Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin, a popular and outspoken Soviet politician, was >elected executive president of the Russian republic on June 13, 1991. He >became the first democratically elected president in Russia's history. Yeltsin >was born on Feb. 1, 1931, in a village in the Sverdlovsk district near the >Ural Mountains. He studied engineering and construction and worked his way up >the Communist party hierarchy. Brought to Moscow from Sverdlovsk by Mikhail >Gorbachev, Yeltsin became (December 1985) head of the Moscow Communist party >organization, but was removed from that post when he broke with Gorbachev in >1987. > NBC news said he used to be quite an athlete, particularly in the world of volleyball... From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:23:55 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:23:37 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:29:55 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aq039 From: aq039@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (David A. Johnson) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: coup seems to be over Message-Id: <1991Aug22.013136.8857@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 01:31:36 GMT References: <28B2FBE6.7615@ics.uci.edu> <1991Aug21.133103.16837@cc.tut.fi> <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> <1991Aug21.204535.21 Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Reply-To: aq039@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (David A. Johnson) Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 44 Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns10.ins.cwru.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In a previous article, song@berault.ics.uci.edu (Xiping Song) says: >In article <1991Aug21.204535.21315@cbnewsk.att.com> markg@cbnewsk.att.com (mark.r.gibaldi) writes: >>In article <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari) writes: >>> >> >>The other two major causes of the coup failure (in my opinion) would >>seem to be the very talented Political manuvering done by Yeltsin, and >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> >>Mark R. Gibaldi >>BELL LABS >>Internet: mrg@cblph.att.com or 70531,1170.compuserve.com >>CompuServe : 70531,1170 > > Can you be more specific about this? I am not very impressed with >what Yeltsin have done in this coup. I think that he is just lucky. >The coup leaders are too weak. If the coup leaders were really united and >determined to win, he would have been killed or arrested. > > Do you remember that, Yeltsin told Majors that "I think that I do not >have much time left!" in yesterday(?) > I believe that Yeltsin was refering to the fact that he did not have much time left before the parliment (sp?) building was attacked not that he didn't have much time before he was taken captive. I do believe, however, that Yeltsin did get rather lucky in the fact that the coup leaders did not shut him up early in the coup. Yeltsin did, however show good political manipulation in getting the people to rally around him. Both the fact that the coup leaders were weak and that Yeltsin handled the situation the way he did were important in the demise of the Coup. To say one is less important that the other is rather trivial. Dave -- "If we deny love that is given to us, if we refuse to give love because we fear the pain of loss, then our lives will be empty, our loss greater." -Tanis Half-Elven (from DragonLance) aq039@cleveland.freenet.edu Dave Johnson From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:24:34 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:24:16 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:30:27 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!ubc-cs!alberta!brazeau.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!wangf From: wangf@unixg.ubc.ca (Frank Wang) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup? What coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug22.025912.21215@unixg.ubc.ca> Date: 22 Aug 91 02:59:12 GMT References: <1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com> Sender: news@unixg.ubc.ca (Usenet News Maintenance) Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada Lines: 14 Nntp-Posting-Host: chilko.ucs.ubc.ca Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com> lmb@sat.com (Larry Blair) writes: >Pretty slick, that Gorbachev. In one fell swoop he eliminated his old guard >opposition, renewed his popular backing, and made a saint out of his `opponent' >(who happens to have the same aims). Even the Baltic republics are sounding >more conciliatory. Check and mate! > >If you doubt any of this, consider how head of the KGB, the army, and the >Supreme Soviet (all of whom were never actually seen) could be stupid enough >to run a coup so disorganized that they didn't even bother to arrest their >prime opponent before taking over. >-- >Larry Blair lmb@sat.com {apple,decwrl}!sat!lmb It's only a joke. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:25:11 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:24:50 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:30:51 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!ig!chaos.cs.brandeis.edu!kostya From: kostya@CHAOS.CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Constantine Kozhukhin) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: How to transliterate V. Antonov's Russian postings? Message-Id: <9108220516.AA01913@presto.ig.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 18:08:38 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 14 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug20.194442.13677@javelin.sim.es.com> krogers@javelin.sim.es.com (K. Rogers) writes: > Could someone post or e-mail a list of how to transliterate the > characters generated by Vadim Antonov's Russian postings? The following are the cyrillic letters in the alphabetical order a b w g d e v z i j k l m n o p r s t u f h c ^ [ ] ? y x | @ q ^ I cannot recall the code for this letter | (tverdyj znak) Kostq From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:25:43 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:25:26 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:32:17 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!iWarp.intel.com!ichips!inews!hopi!bhoughto From: bhoughto@hopi.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup? What coup? Message-Id: <5931@inews.intel.com> Date: 22 Aug 91 04:22:52 GMT References: <1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com> Sender: news@inews.intel.com Organization: Intel Corp, Chandler, AZ Lines: 21 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com> lmb@sat.com (Larry Blair) writes: >[...Gorbachev organized the coup as a trick...] Uh, yeah, really canny of him to do it this way... He must be some sort of super-genius, though, since in order to make it look realistic he had to get these 8 people (and a few hundred others) to pretend to oppose his every political action for 9 years, at a cost of billions of dollars of lost time and progress, and then turn around and sacrifice their careers and possibly their lives for him... (For our friends in other lands: I'm being sarcastic. Larry has just made perhaps the silliest statement ever uttered in an electronic message, and I would be remiss if I didn't take a lighthearted poke at him while refuting his silly claim. Maybe he was being sarcastic, too. Let's hope so.) --Blair "Well, I suppose this argument had to be started and finished, some time..." From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:27:30 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:27:13 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:34:01 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!uwasa.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!ig!untvax.bitnet!IH04 From: IH04@untvax.bitnet Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: The coup resist volution The networked revolutii on Message-Id: <01G9NOR4CWRK0007KY@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 03:58:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 123 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO The following story -- posted for reasons which should become obvious -- will appear in a newspaper Thursday and possibly on the Associated Press wire service if it was submitted by my editors. (RC) COMPUTER NETWORKS KEPT INFORMATION FLOWING DURING COUP By Rogers Cadenhead Fort Worth Star-Telegram DENTON, Texas -- The message relayed from Moscow to a Soviet immigrant in the United States was brief and to the point. "You got out of here just in time," the Russian message said. "If those dogs win, for certain they'll throw us all in prison -- we distributed the proclamation of Yeltsin together with forbidden communiques from Interfax throughout the entire Soviet Union." The messenger signed off, "Greetings from the underground." The short note, spread throughout the West on computer networks, was one of many transmitted during the Soviet crisis. Borrowing a tactic used by Chinese students during the June 1989 Tiananmen Square uprisings, Soviets used electronic mail, or E-mail, as a tool against the takeover. While messages from Russian President Boris Yeltsin and other coup opponents were being sent throughout Asia, Europe and North America this week, the committee that tried to seize power either didn't know about, or couldn't keep up with, the instantaneous transmissions. Through database networks such as CompuServe, which set up a special discussion forum on the crisis, and InterNet, a worldwide network of universities, military sites and businesses, computer users transmitted firsthand reports of the crisis. Soviets also used the channels to transmit and read banned news reports from the Russian Information Agency, the Interfax news agency and Baltic nationalists. "Our net turned out to be a means of communication of the forces of resistance," one Muscovite said. "I am really proud of it, but it's really dangerous." The unprecedented connection was made possible by the introduction of thousands of personal computers into the Soviet Union under President Mikhail Gorbachev. This week, it put a kink into plans to control the flow of information. "It is a tribute to our modern Gutenberg revolution, computer-mediated communication, that at the darkest hour we were getting almost instant E-mail," said Sam Lanfranco, a network member at York University in Canada. "It allowed them to be everywhere and us to be there." GlasNet, a Soviet network, is named for the glasnost, or openness, that allowed its creation. It stayed on line throughout the crisis, one network director said, "maybe because GlasNet is quite new, and the Soviet Pinochets still are not aware of our existence." His name, like all those from the Soviet Union, have been omitted in this report to protect them, at the request of American computer organizers such as John Harlan. Harlan is director of the Russia and Her Neighbors network project, which has headquarters in South Bend, Ind. Soviets who regularly communicated with the West were surprised that they could still send electronic mail out of the country after the takeover. "They were foolish enough until now not to break E-mail link with West sites," one man wrote in halting English. "I think this won't last too long, but I think also that putsch won't last long also." During the apex of the crisis, eyewitness accounts were filed by protesters who attended rallies at the Russian Parliament, the white marble building that has come to be called the Russian White House. "Yesterday, impressions filled me with optimism," wrote one Soviet who sent many reports beginning, "Hello from Moscow!" "All those barricades and many people standing there and some tanks on Yeltsin's side made me feel more confident," he wrote yesterday morning. "When I came home last night after the curfew was imposed by the putschists, my wife disappointed me somehow. She sat home with my little daughter all the day and just watched TV and heard official reports. She is afraid that [the committee of coup leaders] has got the great power. As I told her all I saw, she calmed a little bit, but said that she thinks [the people] just haven't enough information. "For example, the big rally near the Russian White House -- many thousands people there -- were showed on TV as some group of 100-200 people without definite purposes." Some Soviets used the database networks to issue pleas for Western support. "We, the youth of this country, do not want anybody to bring back the past," one resident said in a message sent Tuesday at noon. "We need your moral support!" The FidoNet system, a worldwide hodgepodge of computer bulletin boards, brought messages from several cities. "It was big fun to hear and see on TV so nice comedian show like last press conference -- some very familiar to us," one man wrote yesterday, referring to the coup leaders. "That was really fun, to see such stupid faces and stupid talks. No one comedy can give so lot fun." From an American college, Chinese student Jie Liang offered tips for the Soviets based on his experiences with the Tiananmen Square protests. Liang, who did not not make clear whether he was in China or the United States at the time, said computer networks were a vital link in organizing the rallies and subsequent "Free China" protests. "Western sympathy amounts to little in changing the situation," he told Soviet members of the network. "The Soviet people are their own savior." Liang said that Yeltsin made the right move by calling for strikes. "This power is stronger than tanks in the long run," he wrote. He added that Americans and others interested in helping the popular revolt should use computer networks, fax machines and telephones to pour the truth into the Soviet Union. "At this heavy historic moment, Chinese people are standing by the Soviet people," he wrote. Despite the matters under discussion, the lightheartedness that typifies electronic mail chatter was still evident through the crisis. Keyboard smiles and smirks -- represented by :-) and ;-) and meant to be viewed sideways -- punctuated several messages, and a Leningrad man ended his messages with the sarcastic sign-off, "Don't worry, be happy." There was a :-) on many terminals yesterday when the news began circulating that the coup had begun unraveling. In E-mail to Doug Jones at the University of Iowa, the director of a Soviet network said he would send no more messages. Jones said, "As of the most recent contact I had, he said the coup is over and he was going to get some well-earned rest." From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:28:11 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:27:49 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:34:21 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!hydra!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!fcom.cc.utah.edu!npd.novell.com!newsun!tporczyk From: tporczyk@novell.com (Tony Porczyk) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.221047.26162@novell.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:10:47 GMT References: <1991Aug21.171436.15989@convex.com> <1991Aug21.213822.1348@leland.Stanford.EDU> Sender: usenet@novell.com (The Netnews Manager) Organization: Novell, Inc. Lines: 21 Nntp-Posting-Host: na Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO minch@lotka.Stanford.EDU (Eric Minch) writes: >Furthermore, >Gorbachev--whatever his faults--has certainly been working harder to make life >in the S.U. (and the world) better than Bush has for us in the U.S.. And The utter idiocy of this statement escapes any reason. Why don't you go a few years back, month by month, carefully, and watch the tanks and soldiers in Baltics and other republics terrorize and enslave people in those republics, sent there by your beloved Messiah Gorby. Why don't you go over an absolute lack of any internal economic policy. Why don't you start using your brain before you shout slogans you heard on Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley. And to all those moaning about US not sending $100,000,000,000: I lived in a country occupied by this murderous monster for 21 years and don't feel like supplying them now with my tax money until this joke collapses. If you want to send your money so much, why don't you do it and shut up. Why do you want so much to dispose of *my* money? Tony From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:28:44 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:28:27 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:34:58 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!apple!ig!ukc.ac.uk!conrad From: conrad@ukc.ac.uk (Conrad Longmore) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Thanks Message-Id: <9108220407.AA00408@presto.ig.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:15:55 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: Conrad Longmore Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Thanks to all those brave people in the Soviet Union, especially those netlanders at DEMOS and other sites for stopping the world slipping back into the cold war and darkness. Latest: ITN reports at 2115 GMT/2215 BST & CET: Yeltsin warns of possible last-ditch special forces attack on Russian Parliament. -- // Conrad Longmore / Email: conrad @ tharr.uucp // === There are === // // Bedford College / Janet: tharr!conrad @ uk.ac.ukc // === more than === // //-----------------/ Uucp: ..!ukc!axion!tharr!conrad // === 12 states === // // ** T H A R R ** /---------------------------------// === in Europe === // // +44 234 841503 / Free access to Usenet in the UK // === --------- === // From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:29:21 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:29:01 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:35:56 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!skat.usc.edu!kriz From: kriz@skat.usc.edu (KRIZ) Newsgroups: soc.rights.human,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism Subject: Fax Numbers of Major Newspapers/Journals (for Letters to the Editor) Message-Id: <35240@usc.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 04:15:21 GMT Sender: news@usc.edu Followup-To: soc.rights.human Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Lines: 61 Nntp-Posting-Host: skat.usc.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Well things seem to be over, YEA!!!! But keep this list around anyway ... clearly it can be useful at other times/for other situations. dennis kriz@skat.usc.edu Fax numbers of Various Press Bureaus (Letters to the Editor) ------------------------------------------------------------ +XX (YY) NNNNN +XX = country code (YY) = city code NNNNN = phone number NOTE THESE ARE ALL FAX NUMBERS ------------------------------ Britain ------- London Times [London] +44 071 782 5046 Economist [London] +44 071 839 2968 [New York] (212) 541-9378 [Hong Kong] +852 868 1425 France ------ Le Monde [Paris] +33 (1) 40-65-25-99 +33 (1) 49-60-30-10 Germany ------- Frankfurter Allgemeine +49 (069) 213-26707 Der Spiegel [Hamburg] +49 (040) 3007-247 Japan ----- Japan Times [Tokyo] +81 (03) 3452-3303 [U.S.A.] (714) 549-2888 United States ------------- Los Angeles Times [LA] (213) 237-7679 Wall St. Journal [NY] (212) 416-2658 Time Magazine [NY] (212) 522-0601 Newsweek [NY] (212) 350-4120 ------------------------------------------------------------- From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:31:10 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:30:50 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:38:50 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!ox.com!caen!sdd.hp.com!usc!apple!ig!novell.com!tporczyk From: tporczyk@NOVELL.COM (Tony Porczyk) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <9108220547.AA02635@presto.ig.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:10:47 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 21 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO minch@lotka.Stanford.EDU (Eric Minch) writes: >Furthermore, >Gorbachev--whatever his faults--has certainly been working harder to make life >in the S.U. (and the world) better than Bush has for us in the U.S.. And The utter idiocy of this statement escapes any reason. Why don't you go a few years back, month by month, carefully, and watch the tanks and soldiers in Baltics and other republics terrorize and enslave people in those republics, sent there by your beloved Messiah Gorby. Why don't you go over an absolute lack of any internal economic policy. Why don't you start using your brain before you shout slogans you heard on Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley. And to all those moaning about US not sending $100,000,000,000: I lived in a country occupied by this murderous monster for 21 years and don't feel like supplying them now with my tax money until this joke collapses. If you want to send your money so much, why don't you do it and shut up. Why do you want so much to dispose of *my* money? Tony From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:31:44 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:31:25 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:39:05 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!netcomsv!mikhail From: mikhail@netcom.COM (Mikhail Sukhar) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: the way to relax Keywords: it's over Message-Id: <1991Aug22.060000.25146@netcom.COM> Date: 22 Aug 91 06:00:00 GMT Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 7 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Congratulations! Next group in my .newrc is alt.sex.movies - good way to relax. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-): -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mikhail Sukhar | (408)773-1917 | mikhail@netcom.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:32:19 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:32:00 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:39:25 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!midway!machine!chinet!dhartung From: dhartung@chinet.chi.il.us (Dan Hartung) Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Bye-bye Gorby. . . Message-Id: <1991Aug22.040652.17475@chinet.chi.il.us> Date: 22 Aug 91 04:06:52 GMT References: <1991Aug19.171625.11587@crash.cts.com> <1991Aug20.143012.21289@odin.diku.dk> Organization: Chinet - Chicago public access UNIX Lines: 49 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO kimcm@diku.dk (Kim Christian Madsen) writes: >However, I can't help having a nagging feeling that this coup might be >masterminded by Gorby himself, in order to win popular support and be >able to "win" his way back and purge the old hard-liners once and for >all. This might sound far-fetched but look at the following "facts": > > Gorby put a lot of prestige into getting the VP Yanajev > elected -- A gray and dull man who was always following > orders. He needed someone acceptable to both sides. Almost impossible. > The coup d'etat was carried out on a monday, former KGB people > tells the standard KGB way of making coups are to place them > at fridays, where people are out of the way and they have the > weekend to consolidate themselves in power. I think their hand was forced by Yakovlev's announcement on Friday. It may be that they felt they had no choice but to move before they were actually ready. > The coup-makers aren't making decissive moves, actually it > seems like they have no plan at all. I think they just cound't get the right people to cooperate. > Why state health reasons "high-blood-pressure & back-ache" as > reasons for Gorby's resignation, why not "cardiac arrest" or > even "lead poisoning" or something equally deadly to get him > out of the way for good! They were too chicken to kill him. > Why is Boris Yeltsin still on the loose, he is far more dangerous Ditto. > The actions of the coup-makers are as though they didn't even > think the coup was going to be a success.... The tentative moves they made are evidence of the realization that they weren't successful just 'declaring' themselves in power. Maybe they thought they could scare people into rolling over. -- Daniel A. Hartung | "The idea of a US military victory in Vietnam dhartung@chinet.chi.il.us | is a dangerous illusion." -- Undersec of the Birch Grove Software | Air Force Townsend Hoopes, in a private letter | to new Sec of Defense Clark Clifford, 2/13/68 From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:32:53 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:32:34 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:41:10 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpfcso!hpfcbig!jsw From: jsw@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM (Jacek Walicki) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: "Koo" (?) (Re: Gorbie out) Message-Id: <44550001@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 17:54:55 GMT References: <1991Aug19.084724.9089@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Organization: 40N31m31s_105W0m43s Lines: 8 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In talk.politics.soviet, pchlau@dahlia.waterloo.edu (Patrick Lau) writes: | Can someone tell me what it means? 1. coup \'ko-p\ vb [ME coupen to strike, fr. MF couper - more at COPE] chiefly Scot : OVERTURN, UPSET 2. coup \'ku:\ \'ku:z\ n or coups [F, blow, stroke] pl 1: a brilliant, sudden, and usu. highly successful stroke 2: COUP D'ETAT From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:33:27 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:33:09 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:42:07 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!pacbell.com!att!linac!convex!rdavis From: rdavis@convex.com (Ray Davis) Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.activism,talk.politics.soviet,soc.rights.human Subject: Slovenia: Hard-liners ousted in Moscow - what about Belgrade ? Summary: Forwarded mail from Yugoslavia Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 07:25:10 GMT Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 140 Nntp-Posting-Host: connie.convex.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Date: 21 Aug 91 23:13 From: Miso.Alkalaj@ijs.ac.mail.yu Subject: Hard-liners ousted in Moscow - what about Belgrade ? VMSmail To information: @OUT.DIS Sender's personal name: V.Alkalaj,IJS-Comp.Centre,(+38)(61)214399 ext.666 Dear Friend, The world breathes a little easier tonight - the hard-line Communist coup d'etat in the USSR seems to have been foiled. While democracy and peace seem to be winning in the USSR, fighting continues in Croatia; the Federal Presidency has been meeting in Belgrade for the last two days, the presidents of individual republics attended the session - but there seems to be little progress towards peace or eventual peacefull negotiations. I hope that the events in Moscow will have a positive impact on Yugoslavia: Mr. Markovic/Mr. Milosevic/YPA have many times boasted that their policies enjoy the full support of the "Socialist oriented circles in the USSR" (in fact, Mr. Markovic returned from his last visit to Moscow with offers of military aid); with the hard-line support from USSR (most probably) gone, Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Markovic and the YPA may soon be ready for some serious negotiations (the glitch is that they haven't displayed such type of rationality in the past). In many ways, Yugoslavia has been compared to the USSR - in fact, I have hear oppinions that the US and EEC's handling of the Yu crisis was at least partly an "in-vivo" trial of the methods to be used in handling the USSR problems. True, Yugoslavia, like the USSR, is (was) a multi-ethnic community, with a firmly imbeded communist legacy, kept together more or less by force; in both countries tha army was an important, conservative political force and political liberalisation brought inter-ethnic strife. However, the failed coup d'etat in USSR proved that parallels were only superficial. The Yugoslave federal Prime-Minister Mr. Markovic was in many ways compared to Mr. Gorbachev - but the resemblance is only apparent: both presented the West with their own versions of state transformation to democracy and market economy, and both expected financial and technical aid - but the motives were entirely different. Mr. Markovic was in the reform business only for his own personal power and ego, had always cooperated with (or even used) the conservative YPA as much as he could and did absolutely nothing for the democratic process - the democracy, as much as it is present in Yugoslavia, was introduced by (and forced on) leaderships of individual republics; above all, Mr. Markovic faught the autonomy of republics all the way, seeking to gather even more power within his central governement. On the other hand, Mr. Gorbachev was also forced to appease his own conservatives quite often, but he managed nevertheless to curb their power considerably. He brought Glasnost to the USSR, liberated Soviet satelite states and was instrumental to the preparation of the new Federal agreement, which transferes considerable power to the republics (the signing which the puchists tried to prevent). Mr. Gorbachev was "taken ill" because he refused to cooperate with the hard-liners, while Mr. Markovic signed the order that sent YPA units rampaging through Slovenia. The Perestrojka, Mr. Gorbachev's economic and organisational reform did not save USSR from impending economic collapse (and may have helped to speed it up - though it could hardly be said to have caused it) - while Mr. Markovic brought Yu economy to its knees with his "bold" (experimetalistic is probably a better word) monetary measures. While the backlash of the unavoidable economic reforms impoverishes the citizens of USSR even more, Mr. Gorbachev may not be remembered as a "good guy", but he will enter word history as a visionary who forced USSR to break with its past - for better or worse. On the other hand, Mr. Markovic will be remembered as the man who tried to impede the course of democracy and helped a great deal to the start of the civil war - while wrecking the economy in the process. People who see similarities between Gorbachev and Markovic tend to draw the other parallel: Yeltsin/Russia - Milosevic/Serbia - and nothing could be further from the truth. Yeltsin and Milosevic may both have started their careers as minor Party officials, but Mr. Yeltsin went on to leave the Party and to win the ellections as a neutral candidate - while Mr. Milosevic achieved leadership of Serbian Communist Party, painted it over with socialist colors and won the elections as a Party - i.e., "continuity" - candidate. Mr. Yeltsin set out to break the Party strong-hold on the economy and organisation of Russia by barring the Party from companies - while Mr. Milosevic replaced competent managers with his obedient Party henchmen. But above all, Mr. Yeltsin contributed actively to the lessening of ethnic tension in the USSR; Russians as the largest nation were naturaly percieved as opressors and a danger to (nationalistically-inspired) democratic processes in the republics - and Russian minorities were put under severe preassure, even physical attack, in some republics. Yet Mr. Yeltsin did not call on his people "to defend their brothers" but actually supported the autonomy-pursuing leaderships of Lithania, Latvia, Estonia, etc - which immediately relieved the preassure on Russian minorities, since they were no longer percieved as a threat to eventual secession. On the other hand, Mr. Milosevic whipped Serbs into a nationalistic frenzy, convinced them that Serbs were threatened everywhere by everybody, and supplied arms and "volounteers" for a first strike against their enemies. And while Mr. Yeltsin put up barricades against a conservative coup d'etat, Mr. Milosevic has called for a YPA intervention several times and supported it wholeheartedly when it finaly came; while Mr. Yeltsin made Russians into the most popular nation in USSR, defenders of democracy and human rights - Mr. Milosevic made Serbs into the most hated people in Yugoslavia, and international parriahs. I expect that most of the USSR will stay together and will, after a lengthy (and tortuous) process of reforms regain an important role in the word; this will be lagerly due to efforts of Mr. Gorbachev and Mr. Yeltsin - and they both also contributed enormously to the word peace. Mr. Gorbachev and Mr. Yeltsin are statesmen, to be remembered in the same class with F.D. Roosevelt, Winston Churchil and Mahatma Ghandi. Yugoslavia is already in a state of civil war and should the present trends persist, I expect Yugoslavia to fall apart violently - and the resultant gaggle of small, quarreling states will be a permanent living definition of the verb "to balkanize". There is no doubt that Mr. Milosevic started the war in Yugoslavia and that Mr. Markovic paved the way - but I do not think these two can aspire even to a Herostrathic fame of a Hitler or Saddam Hussein: I think they will only be remembered as Balkan thugs and intrigators with inflated egos. The US and EEC should definitely reconsider their policies towards Eastern Europe: USSR will have to be offered substancial economic aid (which German Chancelour Mr. Kohl has been advocating for some time) to facilitate transition into market economy; but the policy of moral and political support to the democratic Mr. Gorbachev and Mr. Yeltsin worked. On the other hand, Western support for "territorialy unified Yugoslavia" - which supported the centralistic and conservative policies of Mr. Markovic and Mr. Milosevic - caused a civil war. Isn't the lesson obvious enough ? Regards, Vladimir Alkalaj Head of Computer Centre "Jozef Stefan" Institute Telephone: +38 61 214 399 Jamova 39 Telefax: +38 61 219 385 61111 Ljubljana E-mail: miso.alkalaj@ijs.ac.mail.yu Slovenia (ex-Yugoslavia)