From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:43:05 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:42:47 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:37:33 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!hela!aws From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: coup seems to be over Message-Id: <1991Aug21.170742.12797@iti.org> Date: 21 Aug 91 17:07:42 GMT References: <1991Aug21.133103.16837@cc.tut.fi> <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> Distribution: talk.politics.soviet Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow Lines: 20 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari) writes: >The apparent reason for the coup not to have succeeded seems to >be the nonviolent but firm opposition of the civilans and the >Russian parliament, I disagree. The reason for the failure of the coup was the incompetance of the committee. If Stalin (for example) lead the coup both Gorby and Yeltzin would have died early on Aug. 19. Control of communications would have been better, and it would have worked. Let's not draw the wrong lesson from all this. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Allen W. Sherzer | I was sad when I had no shoes until I saw a man with no | | aws@iti.org | feet. Then I said "Hey, got any shoes you don't need?". | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:43:41 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:43:24 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:37:44 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!fernwood!apple!olivea!samsung!caen!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar!fuzzy!root From: root@fuzzy (Operator) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: COUP FAILING, 8 ON PLANE TO KIRGIZIA Message-Id: <19740@darkstar.ucsc.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 13:44:36 GMT References: <9108211322.AA03864@MIT.EDU> Sender: usenet@darkstar.ucsc.edu Reply-To: root@fuzzy (Operator) Organization: UC Santa Cruz; Division of Social Sciences Lines: 4 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO NBC reports: 8 made it to plane, on the way to kirgizia seems like the end of coup? From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:44:16 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:43:55 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:38:03 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!cc.tut.fi!kapa From: kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: coup seems to be over Message-Id: <1991Aug21.133103.16837@cc.tut.fi> Date: 21 Aug 91 13:31:03 GMT Sender: news@cc.tut.fi (USENET News System) Distribution: talk.politics.soviet Organization: Tampere University of Technology Lines: 15 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO **** TUNE IN YOUR BEST NEWS SOURCES ***** Latest news as broadcasted by Finnish TV tell that the coup is about to be over. The contradicting info on the committee memebers tell that they either have fled Moscow to Crimean or are under arrest. According to Interfax, Gorbatchev has been reached by phone. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- kari kankaala, center for scientific computing, espoo, funland kankaala@csc.fi, kankaala@finfun, fax+358-31-16 26 20, +358-0-457 2239 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:44:49 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:44:31 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:38:08 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!nntp.hut.fi!nntp!pjt From: pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka J Taipale) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Coup retreats? AUG 21st, 14:00 GMT Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 14:11:39 GMT Sender: usenet@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id) Distribution: talk Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland Lines: 21 Nntp-Posting-Host: vipunen.hut.fi Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Yle (the Finnish Broadcasting Company) has real good news now. Moscow's radio has reported that the junta has given up and tried to escape Moscow via airplane. According to the report, the junta was arrested. The Red Army tanks are leaving Moscow. It seems that all this mess is playing to Yeltsin's hands. He is now immensely popular, and the Red Army can't be used to overthrow him, because the conscript soldiers like him as much as anyone else. Some foreign countries have recognized Estonia's independency declaration and have formed diplomatic relations with it. THAT's good news. Finland is probably too scared to do this immediately. Maybe the junta tried to swallow too big a feat. I really hope this news is true, and Russia has now a truly democratically elected man in power. But nothing is sure nowadays... -- Pekka Taipale pjt@vipunen.hut.fi From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:45:26 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:45:07 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:38:17 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!fernwood!apple!ig!ulysses.att.com!grass From: grass@ulysses.att.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Yazov Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 13:46:08 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 4 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I can translate as needed... I've been restraining myself to prevent multiple postings. Judy Grass (B.S, M.A. in Slavic Linguistics...) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:45:58 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:45:40 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:38:29 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!s5!joec From: joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Coup Flu may be fatal, Defense Minister may be dead Message-Id: <1991Aug21.162537.12863@fid.morgan.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 16:25:37 GMT Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY Lines: 4 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO The Soviet Defense Minister may have committed suicide, per CNN, ABC and CBS. Gorby said to be on his way to Moscow. joec@morgan.com From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:46:36 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:46:18 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:38:49 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!convex!tighe From: tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Keywords: foreign intervention Message-Id: <1991Aug21.171436.15989@convex.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 17:14:36 GMT References: <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> <1991Aug21.160106.20955@leland.Stanford.EDU> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Texas Lines: 36 Nntp-Posting-Host: convex1.convex.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.160106.20955@leland.Stanford.EDU> (Eric Minch) writes: >In article <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> (Mike Tighe) writes: >> I also notice that they are the same ones that say we shouldn't meddle into >> the internal affairs of other countries, at least when those other >> countries are El Salvador, Nicaragua, Grenada, Phillipines, Nam, etc. But >> the USSR is different... > Although this thread seems to be wandering from politics.soviet, I can't > resist pointing out the differences between No problem, I will bring it back in. > 1) humanitarian aid and military aid; Soldiers eat too. > 2) aid to a government and aid to anti-government underground El Salvador, Nam, Philipines, etc., are the governments. > [dare we mention covert actions?]; > 3) aid to a popular constitutional government and aid to a repressive > dictatorship. Surely you jest when you imply that the Gorby regime is a popular constitutional government, and not a repressive dictatorship. I mean, Gorby is not popular with anybody except Westerners, and they don't vote for his election, but then neither does the average Soviet. And the last time I was living in the USSR I would have said it was pretty repressive. -Mike -- +--------------------------------------------+ |Mike Tighe, tighe@convex.com, (214) 497-4206| +--------------------------------------------+ From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:47:13 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:46:52 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:38:56 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!cc.tut.fi!fuug!mcsun!ukc!qmw-dcs!icdoc!inmos!wraxall.inmos.co.uk!frogland.inmos.co.uk!des From: des@frogland.inmos.co.uk (David Shepherd) Newsgroups: eunet.politics Subject: Re: Coup in the Soviet Union Message-Id: <17781@wraxall.inmos.co.uk> Date: 21 Aug 91 12:53:48 GMT References: <1991Aug19.150828.14923@ida.liu.se> <12437@castle.ed.ac.uk> <1991Aug20.205959.29686@ida.liu.se> Sender: news@wraxall.inmos.co.uk Distribution: eunet Organization: INMOS architecture group Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug20.205959.29686@ida.liu.se>, uda@ida.liu.se (Ulf Dahlen) writes: >But shouldn't Bush have made an even stronger statement? It seems to >me that most world leaders are "slow starters" and time is of the >essence here. a commentator on bbv tv compared the situation to that of the luwait invasion last year when again bush was slow to take a strong stand (other than verbals) ... the differnce between then and now, it was said, was that then thatcher was visiting bush and got him to take a active stance while now there's no-one really to play that role. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- david shepherd: des@inmos.co.uk or des@inmos.com tel: 0454-616616 x 379 inmos ltd, 1000 aztec west, almondsbury, bristol, bs12 4sq "pugh, pugh, barney mcgrew, cuthbert, dibble, grubb !" From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:47:45 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:47:28 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:39:47 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!snowden From: snowden@hemlock.cray.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Latest news Message-Id: <1991Aug21.111925.3174@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 16:19:25 GMT Reply-To: snowden@hemlock.cray.com () Organization: Cray Research, Inc., Eagan, MN Lines: 3 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Soviet Embassy in UK announced the coup is over. Tass reports that Mikhail Gorbachov has been reinstated. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:48:19 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:47:59 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:39:54 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!snowden From: snowden@hemlock.cray.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Latest snippets Message-Id: <1991Aug21.112635.4427@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 16:26:35 GMT Reply-To: snowden@hemlock.cray.com () Organization: Cray Research, Inc., Eagan, MN Lines: 4 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO 17:23 BST 21 August 1991 Very close and senior adviser to Yeltsin announced that Gorbachov will be coming back (as leader) tonight to Moscow. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:48:51 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:48:34 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:41:59 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!icd.ab.com!iccgcc.decnet.ab.com!klimas From: klimas@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.152344.5444@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 20:23:43 GMT References: <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> <1991Aug21.160106.20955@leland.Stanford.EDU> Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.160106.20955@leland.Stanford.EDU>, minch@lotka.Stanford.EDU (Eric Minch) writes: > In article <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) > Although this thread seems to be wandering from politics.soviet, I can't resist > pointing out the differences between > 1) humanitarian aid and military aid; > 2) aid to a government and aid to anti-government underground [dare we mention > covert actions?]; > 3) aid to a popular constitutional government and aid to a repressive > dictatorship. > These are not unimportant distinctions. Not to waste precious net bandwidth, but based upon actual experiences, the leaders of the Baltics have said, themselves in need of aid, the aid should not be given as long as the KGB can divert the goods to their own cause, medicine to their own people or onto the black market, or use the distribution of food as a source of intimidation and prolong the people's agony under a decrepit system. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:49:28 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:49:11 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 03:42:21 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!lamont!vadim From: vadim@ldgo.columbia.edu (vadim levin) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet Subject: Moscow Echo Message-Id: <1991Aug21.154057.14937@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 15:40:57 GMT Sender: news@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu Organization: Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory Lines: 10 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I just got that from Moscow via Israel : Tol'ko chto soobxheno ob areste putchistov (Exo Moskvy so ssylkoj na France Press, 16:00 MSK). Which means ( for those who doesn't read in quazi-russian): RAdiostation "Moscow Echo" quoted Franse Press as saying that all "putch-makers" are arested. 4pm Moscow time From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:50:00 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:49:43 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 04:35:15 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!s5!joec From: joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Coup is over, Gorby on way back to Moscow ... Message-Id: <1991Aug21.182609.13671@fid.morgan.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 18:26:09 GMT Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY Lines: 24 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Yeltsin has addressed the Soviet Legislators and Gorby has talked with Pres Yeltsin and Pres Bush. Says he is fine and many of coup leaders are with Gorby at his dacha. Gorby then said he was on way home. Gorby says he is in control All press curbs lifted, all coup decrees are rescinded and declared null and void. Yeltsin says he controls all of USSR military in absence of Gorby. Gorby not yet shown on TV or heard on radio. Gorby expected in Moscow within 24 hours according to some sources and much sooner according to others. Yelstin and Gorby express thanks for support of US. It appears over..... Whew! joec@morgan.com TIP: Time, Newsweek and US NEWS and WORLD REPORT completely missed the coup since they publish on Friday. I suspect the upcoming issue on this Friday will be a collectors issue. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:50:38 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:50:20 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 04:35:20 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!s5!joec From: joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Anybody want penpals in Soviet Union? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.182955.13794@fid.morgan.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 18:29:55 GMT Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY Lines: 10 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO My family has corresponded with a family in the Soviet Union for the last 2 years and its been a good experience all around. Our friends are in Moscow - can't wait to hear their view of what happened during the coup and in the streets... If you are interested in finding your own penpal in the Soviet Union, email me and I will send you details. Joe Collins joec@morgan.com From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:51:14 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:50:52 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 04:35:36 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!gatech!psuvax1!wupost!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!ns-mx!pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Talking to the media? Message-Id: <7755@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 17:55:52 GMT References: <01G9N0OZZOYO0005LC@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> Sender: news@ns-mx.uiowa.edu Lines: 17 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO >From article <01G9N0OZZOYO0005LC@vaxb.acs.unt.edu>, by IH04@untvax.bitnet: > > The media do know about this forum. Indeed they do. Avg at DEMOS asked me to phone CNN and give CNN his Moscow phone numbers so they could improve news coverage (both for us outside and for the Russian network users). I did so, and (because the CNN people said they might not have time to follow up on the request) I also contacted CBS and AP. As of the most recent contact I had with Avg, he said the coup is over and he was going to get some well earned rest. At this point, and I quote "We're going to return to our normal activity. Anyway it [press contact] was a good advertising [for our] company." Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:51:48 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:51:29 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 04:35:43 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!apollo!goykhman_a From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Soviet Bulletin #25 Message-Id: <1991Aug21.170435.12580@apollo.hp.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 17:04:35 GMT Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA Lines: 14 Nntp-Posting-Host: ufo.ch.apollo.hp.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <23EC105E60A03198@vax1.umkc.edu> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" writes: >CNN, ABC and NPR all reported that Cuba, Libya and Iraq welcomed the fall of >Gorbachev in numerous reports on 19 August. VMS Add PLO to this list. The ability of these guys to shoot themselves in the feet is simply amazing. -- Alex Goykhman Hewlett-Packard, Company (OSSD/CSSL) goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com mit-eddie!apollo!goykhman_a Standard disclaimer From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:52:27 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:52:07 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 05:35:51 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!gauss.rutgers.edu!math.rutgers.edu!cromar From: cromar@math.rutgers.edu (Scott Cromar) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,misc.headlines Subject: Aid to the USSR (was Re: Great Going, Bush!) Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 18:07:11 GMT References: <1991Aug19.075906.21696@netcom.COM> <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> Followup-To: talk.politics.misc Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Lines: 33 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO (Watch the followups. I think they're set to tpm, and I can't edit them.) ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: > As to the G7, they had little to do with it. Throwing money at the Soviet > Union could not possibly have helped it. The vital factor that forced the > hand of the hardliners was the impending signing of the Union Treaty; with > the signing of that treaty, the structure of the Soviet Union would have > been altered to such a degree that it would have been almost impossible to > preserve their positions of power and influence. This was the last chance > they were going to have, and they took it. I think that Matthew is right on this one. There is little evidence to support the contention that the coup would not have occurred if only we had thrown more money at the problem. The causes for the coup may be found (as Matthew has suggested) among the internal stresses caused by liberalization in the USSR. Having said this, I think that it would have been wise to grant MFN status more quickly than was done; I also think that the G7 should have offered more extensive food and technical assistance in exchange for specific assurances on Gorbachev's part. (Conditions would include guarantees of radically decreased military spending as well as institution of something like the 500 day plan.) Throwing money at a problem is never a good policy. But it is another thing to invest money in a concrete reform package. -- --Scott Cromar SUPPORT CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM "Are you sure there are no hidden cameras up there?" --Arizona Rep. Don Kinney, while stuffing $55,000 into a gym bag From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:53:01 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:52:44 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 05:36:01 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!ak889 From: ak889@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Steve Rogovin) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Gorby to return Message-Id: <1991Aug21.182350.17557@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 18:23:50 GMT Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA) Lines: 8 Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns9.ins.cwru.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Associated Press syas that Gorbechev will be returning to Moscow MOMENTARILY. This news via CNN. -- The Professor of Death, Mr. Homicide The man that proves that murder DOES pay(and well..) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:53:38 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:53:21 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 05:36:38 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!bu.edu!cs!gene From: gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis) Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet Subject: Saddam, Qadafi and Arafat Message-Id: <88209@bu.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 18:43:54 GMT Sender: news@bu.edu Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast Lines: 7 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I understand that these three men were the only world leaders who cheered the (now failed) coup in USSR. Can anyone confirm/contradict this. (I stress that I mean welcoming the coup rather than just going along with it, like, say, China did. I understand that Saddam even implied some kind of active role in the coup - what a clown.) -- Gene Itkis (gene@cs.bu.edu) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:54:15 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:53:53 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 05:37:03 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!usc!apple!ig!vax1.umkc.edu!CDELL From: CDELL@VAX1.UMKC.EDU ("VALENTINE M. SMITH") Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Soviet Bulletin #28 Message-Id: <4447D70940A02A23@vax1.umkc.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 18:34:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 23 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO This is the last of the multi-list bulletins now that the situation in the USSR has almost calmed down again. I will continue to post to RUSSIA AND Val-L, the latter because of the huge volume of my readers who did not want to sub to RUSSIA or TPS-L. Several media report Gorbachev has been reinstated as Prsident, with CNN reporting at 1300 CDT that the Supreme Soviet had taken this action, plus lifted press and demonstration restrictions ordered by the "Gang of Eight." Defense Minister is reported a suicide, Pavlov in hospital and Yanayev in his office, the other five reported to have fled, to either Kirgizia or the Crimea or both. George Bush reported he had spoken with Gorbachev by phone. Soviet tanks are reported leaving Moscow, with the death toll in last night's clashes raised to four, one a "foreigner." The Moscow prosecutor reports that the Gang of Eight is "under investigatiun." Strauss is in place as US Ambassador, and may present his credentials to Gorbachev as early as this evening. The Supreme Soviet is to meet 26 August. Telephone links have been restored to the Baltics, no word on the "center's" reactions on Baltic declaration. Gorbachev is to visit the Russian Parliament building, while leaps forward in stature for "leading" the resistance. Yeltsin gave credit to the people's vigilance and defiance. Yeltsin revealed that Kryuchkov had invited him to go with him to meet with Gorbachev, he refused. The army continues to leave. It needs to shake down, but the crisis appears to be over for the moment. VMS From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:55:28 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:55:10 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 05:37:23 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!olivea!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!IQTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: coup seems to be over Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 18:44:52 GMT References: Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 20 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO On Wed, 21 Aug 1991 17:07:42 GMT Allen W. Sherzer said: >In article <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari) > writes: > >>The apparent reason for the coup not to have succeeded seems to >>be the nonviolent but firm opposition of the civilans and the >>Russian parliament, > >I disagree. The reason for the failure of the coup was the incompetance >of the committee. If Stalin (for example) lead the coup both Gorby and >Yeltzin would have died early on Aug. 19. Control of communications >would have been better, and it would have worked. > >Let's not draw the wrong lesson from all this. > Good point. Those dedicated to total non-violence cannot justify their positions based upon what was occurring. Those Molotovs sure looked violent to me. And the people who found out how heavy tanks are by becoming road pizzas weren't killed by nonviolence. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:56:02 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:55:45 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 05:37:33 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!stanford.edu!leland.Stanford.EDU!news From: minch@lotka.Stanford.EDU (Eric Minch) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.213822.1348@leland.Stanford.EDU> Date: 21 Aug 91 21:38:22 GMT References: <1991Aug21.171436.15989@convex.com> Sender: news@leland.Stanford.EDU (Mr News) Organization: DSG, Stanford University Lines: 49 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.171436.15989@convex.com> tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) writes: .. [previous messages redundant] .. > > 1) humanitarian aid and military aid; > > Soldiers eat too. > > > 2) aid to a government and aid to anti-government underground > > El Salvador, Nam, Philipines, etc., are the governments. > > > 3) aid to a popular constitutional government and aid to a repressive > > dictatorship. > > Surely you jest when you imply that the Gorby regime is a popular > constitutional government, and not a repressive dictatorship. I mean, Gorby > is not popular with anybody except Westerners, and they don't vote for his > election, but then neither does the average Soviet. And the last time I was > living in the USSR I would have said it was pretty repressive. > > -Mike > -- 1) Certainly soldiers eat (an army is, after all, well known to travel on its stomach :) but this is irrelevant. The distinction I'm making here is a simple one: does the aid consist of food, clothing, construction equipment, educational facilities and personnel, etc., or does it consist of armaments, materiel, "advisors", etc? Further, if the aid consists of monetary credit, the sort of strings put on it can either encourage or discourage its employment for civilian or military purposes. 2) El Salvador, Viet Nam, Phillipines, etc. were governments which were set up and/or propped up by the U.S.; the history of U.S. intervention in Latin America is a long series of destabilizations of governments which showed even vague antipathy, and subsidy of "friendly" governments, no matter how oppressive. 3) I think the events of the last few days can serve as an indication of the popularity of the "Gorby regime". Sure, we all like to complain about whatever set of fools is currently running the government, but something like this putsch shows where the people's hearts really are. Furthermore, Gorbachev--whatever his faults--has certainly been working harder to make life in the S.U. (and the world) better than Bush has for us in the U.S.. And finally, when political scientists (of which I am NOT one) speak of a popular government, it is my understanding that they aren't talking about it in the sense of a horse race or a beauty contest, but rather in the sense that the ultimate authority derives from the people. -- From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:56:40 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:56:23 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 05:37:58 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!netcomsv!ergo From: ergo@netcom.COM (Isaac Rabinovitch) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Talk to the general media? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.180116.14255@netcom.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 18:01:16 GMT References: <18914@venera.isi.edu> <1991Aug21.021437.21808@agate.berkeley.edu> Organization: UESPA Lines: 37 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In <1991Aug21.021437.21808@agate.berkeley.edu> jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck) writes: >In article <18914@venera.isi.edu>, lpress@isi.edu (Laurence I. Press) writes: >|> >|> Is there not a danger that by telling the media that the Internet >|> and Demos/Relcom exist we can get them busted? >|> >|> What do you think? Does the KGB know about the Net anyhow? >The media know about the net, and many reporters are on it... >It's possible that press reports about the role of the net >might prompt some Soviet bureaucrat to cut the link... > ... We'll >just have to rely on their sense of responsibility (this probably >means you shouldn't tell your local TV reporters: they are an >incredibly dim-witted and irresponsible breed). This whole line of discussion strikes me as a little silly. You only have to turn on the TV set to see that Soviet authorities have lost most of their ability to control the flow of information. (Can you imagine Western reporters moving around Moscow so freely 5 years ago, even in non-crisis times?) Why do you suppose Soviet reform began in the first place? Indeed, if they'd realized how far the process had gone, the plotters would probably have realized the coup had no hope of succeeding. -- ergo@netcom.com Isaac Rabinovitch netcom!ergo@apple.com Silicon Valley, CA {apple,amdahl,claris}!netcom!ergo "Where's the rest of me?" --Ronald Reagan From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:57:16 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:56:56 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:35:30 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ulrik!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!sun4!jwm From: sun4!jwm (James W. Meritt) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: close neighbor Message-Id: <1991Aug21.191258.16797@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 19:12:58 GMT References: <3152@kielo.uta.fi> <1991Aug20.165616.6371@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> Sender: news@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory Lines: 35 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka J Taipale) writes: }In article <1991Aug20.165616.6371@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> jwm@sun4.uucp (James W. Meritt) writes: } }>}Finland offers an excellent place to monitor broadcasts from the USSR as }>}we are their closest neighbour. } }>Perhaps you mean to Moscow? There are other countries with borders }>on the Soviet Union. Even the US of A is only 3 miles from the Soviet }>Union... } }>But Finland does make an excellent listening site, with a straight }>shot across the water ("Whiskey on the Rocks". hehehehe) } }Actually, that "Whiskey on the Rocks" thing happened in Sweden. We }don't have to cross water to get to USSR, I appologize. I've spent a lot of time in the water, but the adjacent land is not as well remembered as it should. I'm sorry. }BTW, it seems strange to me why the PLO - along with Iraq and Libya - }is once again betting on a dead horse. Don't they have any mind at }all? How do they think anybody will take them seriously when they }talk about democracy and freedom, now that they support such an }undemocratic coup like this? As soon as the PLO spoke out in favor of the coup, the committee of 8 was doomed. The PLO seems to go out of its way to pick losers. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily represent those opinions of this or any other organization. The facts, however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone. jwm@sun4.jhuapl.edu or jwm@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu or meritt%aplvm.BITNET From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:57:48 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:57:31 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:36:31 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!rice!hsdndev!husc-news.harvard.edu!zariski!zeleny From: zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Any chance people could just shut up and listen?? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.142206.2714@husc3.harvard.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 18:22:05 GMT References: <1991Aug21.041807.14814@walter.bellcore.com> Organization: Harvard University Dept. of Mathematics Lines: 29 Nntp-Posting-Host: zariski.harvard.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.041807.14814@walter.bellcore.com> mo@gizmo.bellcore.com () writes: >(munch) > >Frankly, folks, the people in Moscow don't give a crap about >your opinions right now. How about stop wasting everyone's >bandwidth and just listen to history unfolding?? > >I think that's making enough noise for everyone. Right. Now bugger off like a good boy. > -Mike O'Dell > >I speak for me. Bellcore's on its own. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ | ``If there are no Platonic ideals, then what did we fight for?'' | | (A Spanish anarchist, after 1938) | | Mikhail Zeleny Harvard | | 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707 doesn't | | Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139 think | | (617) 661-8151 so | | email zeleny@math.harvard.edu or zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu | \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:58:26 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:58:08 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:36:49 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!usc!samsung!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851 From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet Subject: Re: Irresolute Coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.192714.2542@newshost.anu.edu.au> Date: 21 Aug 91 19:27:14 GMT References: <1991Aug20.100459.20092@newshost.anu.edu.au> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 141 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I guess the most interesting items here are live snippets from the Soviet Union, so I am passing on the following email received from there in response to the above item of mine in talk.politics.soviet. Although the immediate crisis seems to be over I imagine that there would still be more pressing uses for the 2400 baud email link so I will not be replying by email and have deleted all lines indicating the email address from the header. (This has nothing to do with the well meaning but naive pronouncements that have been made about "safety" - as though the relevant authorities do not monitor ALL telecommunications traffic from the Soviet Union!) Frankly I find the comments largely incomprehensible, perhaps due to language and cultural differences (hence the cross-posting to soc.culture.soviet), perhaps due to the circumstances under which it was written - i.e. the reference to shooting being heard "(just a minute ago). Bye." To save bandwidth, please email any comments to me and I will try to summarize if any light is shed. ************************** Organization: Plasma Physics Division, Institute for General Physics Date: Wed, 21 Aug 91 00:20:11 +0300 (MSD) Subject: Re: [NEWS] Irresolute Coup? Of course you are right that democrats are not going to take the charge of the whole union. It seems clear from here that the very situation in soviet union emerged from the fact that the territiries do not have so much in common (in the sense of culture, morals or whatsoever) but how could this be decleared resolutely? Do you see that a hundreds of territorial problems would emerge at the same moment. And who would find the solution.In fact they did, they were going to sign the union treaty and then solve them by a hundreds of bilateral trade territory or whatever agreements. BUT! The clockwork of this red orange is that totalitarian power is based on distribution. Or better to say the eastern model of totalitarizm is based on the TZAR the giver distribu- ting everything among slaves. So that's the point. They can live ujntil they are distributing. And now I've heard they are already shooting (just a minute ago). Bye. ************************ The email above was in response to the following comments of mine, repeated now as many have joined these discussions since I posted [and perhaps as a slight ego trip :-) - I am rather proud of having pointed to the irresolute character of the coup and the likelihood of it being defeated while the mass media and other comments here were assuming it to be a "fait accompli"] >Yeltsin and the Russian Federation's rejection of the right wing coup seems >more resolute than I would have given the wimpy Russian "democrats" credit >for. > >But the coup itself seems strangely irresolute. As I write there are reports >of crowds being allowed to assemble in a mass demonstration against the >coup, surrounded by tanks and armoured personnel carriers to intimidate >them, but without force being used to disperse them. > >I find that strange. The coup is being mounted from within the heart of >the state power itself - the KGB and military, primarily to stop the >unravelling of the nomenklatura's power (and timed specifically to >prevent the signing of the new union treaty and to present the >forthcoming party central committee meeting with a fait accompli). > >To succeed, the right wing MUST demonstrate that they REALLY ARE >prepared to rule by armed force - after all, they have NO other >source of "legitimacy". > >Without large scale bloodshed, one could only expect to ACCELERATE >the breakaway of union republics, AND the undermining of the right >wing's power bases. > >Perhaps we are about to see that bloodshed. If so the regime may >well survive at least for it's six months "emergency" period since >neither military mutinies, nor popular armed revolts can be organized >quickly against military repression. But in the long run the right >wingers are doomed by the simple fact that they have no program. >The economy will continue falling to bits, even faster, and promises >to raise wages and lower prices may help encourage apathy now but >will only highlight the regime's bankruptcy in a few months time >when the reverse has happened. > >If instead the standoff continues without major bloodshed, then >this coup could turn out to be just another "armed demonstration" >like the earlier coup mounted in the Baltic Republics, which >quietly faded away. It would have forced postponement of the >union treaty, and asserted the nomenklatura's continued importance, >without actually transferring full power, and with it, full >RESPONSIBILITY to the right wingers. (Why ANYBODY would want to >be responsible for the Government of the Soviet Union at this >particular time remains as mysterious as why anybody wanted that >responsibility in Poland, but people do.) > >Certainly the new regime has made more than adequate preparations >for a compromise. Gorbachov is about as unpopular within the Soviet >Union as he is popular outside it. Yet instead of announcing that >he has been shot, or at least faces trial for dismantling the >Soviet empire in Eastern Europe, undermining the unity of the Soviet >Union itself and wrecking the Soviet economy (with optional exposures >of being a CIA agent), they have merely announced that he is "unwell". >Obviously being "unwell" is a condition that could be merely temporary. > >Likewise Yeltsin is permitted to issue manifestoes declaring the new >regime illegal, from his HQ in the Russian Federation Parliament >building right in the heart of Moscow, surrounded by his own tanks! >A resolute coup would have gone beyond seizing the Radio and TV >stations to at least smashing through those tanks (a mere dozen or >so) and the crowds around them (a mere few thousand), to arrest >Yeltsin. > >Again, perhaps they will do so shortly, but it appears they are >holding out hope of a compromise. > >It is to be hoped that the democrats will go further than their >militant denunciations of the conspirators and actually proceed >to ARREST all supporters of the coup at a local level. Unfortunately >that would make THEM responsible for the Government of the Soviet >Union, which may not be what they really want. If they don't, and >just continue to denounce, and the right-wingers continue holding >out for a compromise, Soviet politics will become even more >bizarre and unpredictable than it has been. > >The black colonels program of suppressing all political parties >(including the Communist Party) and privatizing the economy >under martial law could conceivably work for a while (as it has >in China and Chile). But so far the sponsors of the coup have >not adopted that program, perhaps because they realize that it >too ultimately leads nowhere. > >"Things fall apart, the center cannot hold, >mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. >The blood-dimmed tide is loosed and everywhere, >the ceremony of innocence is drowned. >The best lack all conviction while the worst >are filled with passionate indignation. > >Surely some revelation is at hand..." (Yeats) > From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:59:03 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:58:45 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:36:57 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 23:03:42 GMT References: <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> <1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com> Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World Lines: 18 In-Reply-To: rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com's message of Wed, 21 Aug 91 11: 27:03 GMT Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO What I find more amusing is how conservative-chic it had become to praise Gorby and for the conservatives to take credit for everything going on over there... ...But the minute things went wrong, BLAME IT ON THE "LIBERALS"! Now that the coup is over and has ended (hopefully) happily is that the "liberal's fault" also? No, now the conservatives around here will try to reel it all back. how f***ing transparent. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 02:59:41 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:59:24 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:37:04 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!smsc.sony.com!george From: george@smsc.sony.com (George Maestri) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: It's miller(ski) time Message-Id: <1991Aug21.194143.2754@smsc.sony.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 19:41:43 GMT Organization: Sony Microsystems Corp. Lines: 11 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Whew ! Just a note to congratulate the brave Soviet people who helped overcome the bonds of totalitarianism. It looks as though your country is on the right course. If I could buy you all a beer, I would. 8^) Yours in democracy -George From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:00:15 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 02:59:55 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:37:43 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!orca!scratchy!galt From: galt@scratchy.dsd.es.com (Greg Alt - Perp) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:36:42 GMT References: <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> Sender: galt@scratchy (Greg Alt - Perp) Followup-To: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT Lines: 22 Nntp-Posting-Host: 130.187.85.107 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes: > > What I find more amusing is how conservative-chic it had become to > praise Gorby and for the conservatives to take credit for everything > going on over there... > > ...But the minute things went wrong, BLAME IT ON THE "LIBERALS"! > > Now that the coup is over and has ended (hopefully) happily is that > the "liberal's fault" also? No, now the conservatives around here will > try to reel it all back. > > how f***ing transparent. One interesting thing that I noticed is that Bush has been praising Yeltsin, saying that Yeltsin stopped the coup. He has yet to praise the Russian people who are the real reason Gorbachev is back. Leaders like to think that the only important people are the leaders, but in this case it was the millions of people who opposed the coup that should be praised the most. Also, the reports that the coup "collapsed" are a little annoying... It was SMASHED by the people... Greg From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:00:47 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:00:31 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:37:49 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!krogers From: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com (K. Rogers) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup? What coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.223431.29122@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:34:31 GMT References: <1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com> Sender: Keith Rogers@cri.dk Reply-To: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah Lines: 19 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO >Pretty slick, that Gorbachev. In one fell swoop he eliminated his old guard >opposition, renewed his popular backing, and made a saint out of his `opponent' >(who happens to have the same aims). Even the Baltic republics are sounding >more conciliatory. Check and mate! > >If you doubt any of this, consider how head of the KGB, the army, and the >Supreme Soviet (all of whom were never actually seen) could be stupid enough >to run a coup so disorganized that they didn't even bother to arrest their >prime opponent before taking over. And of course they're all so magnanimous as to commit political if not physical suicide (life in the klinker at the least) so Gorby can consolidate his position which they don't agree with in the least, right? Give me a break. Your Machiavellian fantasies run away with you. -- Keith Rogers Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp. krogers@javelin.sim.es.com From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:01:25 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:01:06 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:39:07 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!shamash!duke!jrd From: jrd@duke.cdc.com (john r douglas x6668) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses Summary: FAIRS Keywords: Foundation for Amateur International Servise (FAIRS) Message-Id: <36005@shamash.cdc.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:46:28 GMT References: <35158@usc.edu> <1991Aug20.182116.1621@amd.com> Sender: usenet@shamash.cdc.com Reply-To: jrd@mips.COM (john r douglas x6668) Organization: CDC Arden Hills, MN Lines: 36 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO clark@brahms.amd.com (Brad D. Clark) posts: >Another thought, if someone could get them in, Ramsey has their 500mW >FM broadcast transmitters available in the US. Someone ought to look into >perhaps getting them into the USSR???? I just returned from the USSR, along with David Larsen of VPI from a month in the USSR. During the trip we distributed 9 PC's, several HF tranceivers and the equipment required to bring 9 digitial radio stations on the air. We received the support of RSF and Aeroflot and many Soviet officials in the course of this trip. This was all equipment donated by IBM, CDC, PACCOM and many individuals across the US. We have formed a new non profit organization to promote ventures like this one in the future. Information about FAIRS will appear in QST (a radio mag), CQ WIA Magazine in Australia, EUDXF mag in Europe. Anyone who might like information please let me know. on a personal note: I am very proud of the actions of our Soviet friends who took a stand, at no small danger to themselves, to protect this movement toward a better and safer world. John *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* * * * * John Douglas * This space left blank * * Arden Hills, MN * except for line above * * Control Data Corp. * " " " " * * * " " " " * *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* * Disclaimer: I never said that ! I never even * * thought that. But I sure as hell agree!! * *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:01:59 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:01:42 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:40:34 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!usc!apple!ig!scutum.ece.cmu.edu!mes From: mes@SCUTUM.ECE.CMU.EDU (Mark Edward Stahl) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Kasparov on Tonight Show Message-Id: <9108212014.AA00810@scutum.ece.cmu.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 20:14:15 GMT References: Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon Lines: 17 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article you write: > >BTW. If anyone wants a list of Fax numbers for major media offices, >let me know. I have one that came off Peace Net back about six months >ago. There are probably a couple hundred numbers on the list, or I >would just go ahead and post it. > > > /++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++\ >! Later + Systems Programmer ! >! Gary Warner + Samford University Computer Services ! >! + II TIMOTHY 2:15 ! > \+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/ Could you please forward me a copy of the list. Thnak you. -- mark