From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:20:04 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:19:48 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:38:53 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!polaris!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sample.eng.ohio-state.edu!purdue!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!biow From: biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Talk to the general media? Message-Id: <38412@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 02:10:52 GMT References: <18914@venera.isi.edu> Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742 (pronto) Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO My thinking is beginning to change on this subject (in contrast to some earlier e-mail). I can see no advantage to anyone to have mass media releasing information about the Demos/Relcom link. In fact, I don't even see any convincing need for our media to have instant access to the information that is being conveyed. Rather, it is the Russian people who have the only legitimate "need to know" here. Unless this information can be transmitted back to Russia (minus any attribution or source info, of course), its dissemination in the mass media achieves nothing, and might get Oleg, Igor, & company shot. On the other hand, our Russian friends do want the information disseminated, or they wouldn't be sending it out. Let's just be very careful with the identity of the source. There is NO REASON to tell any newsman what it is. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:20:37 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:20:20 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:39:15 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!henry.ece.cmu.edu!bilaniuk From: bilaniuk@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Nykolai Bilaniuk) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Aftermath of the Coup Message-Id: <1991Aug21.144315.29602@fs7.ece.cmu.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:43:15 GMT Sender: news@fs7.ece.cmu.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon Lines: 107 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Almost as soon as the coup got underway, CNN had Gari Kasparov on the air saying that the failure of the coup was certain. He was right *if a coup was attempted at all*, and I think there is some room for doubt. What really happened? Here are some thoughts. The Soviet Empire cannot be simultaneously united and democratic. That I have maintained before. Democratic sentiments are on the rise among the peoples throughout the USSR, and in all republics but Russia they are explicitly anticolonialist. In Russia herself support for imperialism is waning too. Whether the West likes it or not, in the minds of members of captive Soviet nations democracy goes hand in hand with decolonialization. The central government has never been keen on supporting individual or national minority rights, and the captive peoples feel that the only way to guarantee either is through political independence from the center. I repeat - we in the West don't have to like that attitude, but it won't go away just because we wish it would. Anti-colonialism will continue to rise in popularity in the USSR. The Soviet leadership of all persuasions and all levels has long understood that a democratic USSR is impossible, and the most fundamental split among them is between the "unionists" and the "democrats". Some examples: Gorbachev and Kravchuk are moderate unionists, Yanayev and Pugo hardliners. Drach is a moderate democrat, Landsbergis and Khmara are hardliners. Just about everyone was unhappy with Gorbachev because they know that his mix of democracy and union is ultimately untenable, and they were afraid that in the end things would settle on the other side of the equation. Gorbachev knew this too, and he needed to do something to boost his popularity with democrats which was suffering because of his bloody crackdowns around the periphery of the empire. Meanwhile the unionists might have felt he was going too far towards letting the periphery slip away. Now what actually happened in the coup? We know that the "Grey Committee" that held a news conference and initially included Yanayev, Pugo, Kruchkov, Yazov and others claimed to be taking over because Gorbachev was ill. In fact they kept Gorbachev out of sight and sent tanks into the streets in a very ill-disguised coup. As predicted by Kasparov, Shukhevych, and others, the troops proved unreliable when asked to attack Russians, and the coup (if that's what it was) disintegrated within two days. Some of the strange things about the exercise are these: - Why didn't they grab both Gorbachev and Yeltsin before announcing the coup, and kill Gorbachev with a faked heart attack? - Why did they allow telephone, electric service, and other utilities to continue to the Russian republic's parliament when it was under siege, thus giving Yeltsin a tremendous propaganda boost? - Why shut down the anti-coup, anti-imperialist Baltic broadcasts but not the anti-coup Moscow Echo radio, which was not overtly anti-imperial? - Why with Yakovlev's resignation and announcement of an impending coup did Gorbachev not act against the conspiracy preemptively, choosing instead to go to Crimea on vacation? Gorbachev certainly must have known something was afoot but didn't act on it. These and other factors point out that either the coup conspiracy was very weak all along, or Gorbachev was the mastermind. I think the latter theory is unprovable and will remain so (and I don't know whether I should believe it myself) but it is something to keep in mind. If Gorbachev knew about the conspiracy but wasn't party to it, then he must have waited in full confidence that the coup would fail. He was waiting for the excuse to purge those hardliners who lined up against him, thus tightenting his grip on the Communist Party and the Soviet Empire. If Gorbachev was party to the coup, then he staged it for two reasons. Of minor importance: to boost his dismally bad opinion in the eyes of ordinary Soviet citizens. Of primary importance: to get Western aid flowing, which he had been denied by the G7 but might be granted "out of necessity" to help him stay in power and "continue the reforms". Of course he may yet double-cross his hardline co-conspirators by purging them anyway. We may be able to tell a bit about what really happened (real coup known to Gorbachev vs a Gorbachev led coup) by how the conspirators are treated after the fact, but such information won't be decisive for reasons already mentioned (a purge is in Gorby's interest). There are a couple of lessons to be learned from this episode. First of all, a bright spot: There were predictions that amid an economic mess, the Soviet peoples would support an alternative leadership that would restore order, even if it had to be done in a Stalinist way. Now we know that they are not that stupid. The dark clouds on the horizon: In the long run, a failed coup and restoration of Gorbachev to power increase, not decrease, the risk of war within the USSR. This is because the stakes will have been raised for both sides. The "unionist" Gorbachev's prestige in the West will increase, leading to more aid which translates into a greater subsidy for the Soviet military and internal security machine. Any domestic popularity boost will be short-lived. On the other hand, the coup episode will strengthen the conviction in the peripheral republics that the center cannot be trusted, and that only independence can assure basic human rights. Thus we are setting the stage for a later clash. At the time of writing, Gorbachev hasn't yet resurfaced. Nor have I yet read what has been written on the net in the last few days; I just came back from a trip. Nick From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:21:12 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:20:55 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:41:22 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!cornell!vax5.cit.cornell.edu!pksy From: pksy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Nuclear Missiles Message-Id: <1991Aug20.225437.6952@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 02:54:37 GMT References: <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> <1991Aug20.142750.21509@newshost.anu.edu.au> Distribution: talk Organization: CIT, Cornell University Lines: 13 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug20.142750.21509@newshost.anu.edu.au>, cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) writes: > In article <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu > (Paul Ward) writes: > >>So what happens when some commanders with nuclear weapons join Yeltsin and >>some stay with the committee? > > Nuclear weapons are of little use for international wars these days and > of still less use in civil wars. What if the hard liners find them already lost? Will they try this last ditch effort? From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:21:44 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:21:27 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:41:38 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!olivea!apple!ig!vax1.umkc.edu!CDELL From: CDELL@VAX1.UMKC.EDU ("VALENTINE M. SMITH") Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Soviet Bulletin #25 Message-Id: <23EC105E60A03198@vax1.umkc.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:43:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 2 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO CNN, ABC and NPR all reported that Cuba, Libya and Iraq welcomed the fall of Gorbachev in numerous reports on 19 August. VMS From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:22:48 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:22:31 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:42:23 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!ig!vax.acs.open.ac.uk!AEB_BEVAN From: AEB_BEVAN@vax.acs.open.ac.uk Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Big Brother Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 14:17:42 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 14 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Someone asked whether it is safe to discuss net details here. The Baltics Republics list ha salways assumed that it is tapped by the KGB. We make a policy point of not identifying sources during crisis periods. We started as a means of setting up nets but ceased publicising net addresses in january. Some of the blith chattering on other lists the last couple of days has horrifed us. I have no doubt taht if the coup had succeeded list archives would have provided good clues for purges in teh USSR. Edis Bevan BALT-L editor From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:23:23 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:23:05 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:42:35 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!olivea!samsung!think.com!unixland!sharon From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Co. Alksnis on Nightline Message-Id: <1991Aug21.044151.2414@unixland.natick.ma.us> Date: 21 Aug 91 04:41:51 GMT Organization: The Think_Tank BBS & Public Access Unix (508) 655-3848 Lines: 35 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO The so-called "dark colonel," Col. Viktor Alksnis, appeared on ABC-TV's Nightline news program this morning. As an aside, I found this rather bizarre ... even after the Gulf War, I still find it strange to see live TV interviews with key participants in the early stages of a very confused conflict overseas. ... Same thing seeing all the TV cameras inside the Russian Parliament building. Anyway ... if you saw an earlier posting about Col. Alksnis, you know that he outlined a program in a magazine article that called for a state of emergency for six months at least to restore order in the Soviet Union, among other things. Well, tonight he said that the disruption of the signing of the new union treaty was a "positive" step because it preserved the USSR. However, when asked if he endorsed the new committee, he said this committee differed from HIS plan because his plan required a committee to be set up by constitutional means, by the Supreme Soviet. He believes action by the Soviet legislature is still needed to give this committee legitimacy. (Other analysts, by the way, question whether the Supreme Soviet would back the committee. And one noted ironically that the committee may have done more to tear up the USSR than the new union treaty would have done, since it seems to have speeded up calls for independence among some republics as well as uniting many different democratic and nationalist forces in the country). Col. Alksnis also said he spoke to an aide to Marshall Yazov, and the aide says Yazov is still on the new ruling committee and has not stepped down. Sharon -- Sharon Machlis Gartenberg Framingham, MA USA email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us or uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:23:58 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:23:39 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:44:02 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!pesetsk From: pesetsk@athena.mit.edu (David M Pesetsky) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Message-Id: <1991Aug21.145832.7816@athena.mit.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:58:32 GMT References: <1991Aug21.005523.2705@husc3.harvard.edu> Sender: news@athena.mit.edu (News system) Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 9 Nntp-Posting-Host: e40-008-8.mit.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.005523.2705@husc3.harvard.edu> gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu (Zhenya Gorokhovsky) writes: >Translation of the Posting from DEMOS, Leningrad >Leningrad 22.20 >Headlines: > ... >Pskov Divison is already in Leningrad. Big House [I guess that >is City Council, ZG] is surrounded. The "Big House" (Bol'shoj Dom) is KGB headquarters in Leningrad. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:24:31 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:24:13 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:44:32 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!ak889 From: ak889@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Steve Rogovin) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: The situation Message-Id: <1991Aug21.045821.3342@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 04:58:21 GMT Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA) Lines: 11 Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns9.ins.cwru.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO First, I'd like to address the mini-controversy about spreading the existence of Internet in the USSR. While its existence should not be rampantly spread, don't you think that such high up officials in the Soviet government(Dfense minister, Interior minister, head of KGB, etc) would know of Internet. Either they know of it and do not deem it to be a threat, or it is just one of many thing that they have been unable to shut down to this point. Now that I have said this, does anyone know the extent of damage caused by Soviet aggression last night and just how close to the "White House" Soviet troops have come? -- The Professor of Death, Mr. Homicide The man that proves that murder DOES pay(and well..) From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:25:05 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:24:47 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:45:39 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!fcom.cc.utah.edu!npd.novell.com!newsun!tporczyk From: tporczyk@novell.com (Tony Porczyk) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: The West missed an opportunity Message-Id: <1991Aug20.180221.28318@novell.com> Date: 20 Aug 91 18:02:21 GMT References: <1991Aug20.090921.4616@decuk.uvo.dec.com> Sender: usenet@novell.com (The Netnews Manager) Organization: Novell, Inc. Lines: 17 Nntp-Posting-Host: na Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO dierick@ketje.enet.dec.com (Dominique Dierick) writes: >When I hear president Bush and prime minister Major demand the re-installation >of Gorbatchov I find it kind of hypocrite. >For years Gorbatchov has asked for financial support but he really got peanuts >from us. The German cancellor Kohl was the only one willing to support fully. >Now it is too late again. If we had given Gorbatchov our full support, hewould >have been more popular in the Soviet Union and the hard liners wouldn't have >found support for their coup. $100,000,000,000 to appease the bastards, right? Learn your history. I am sure they would have been real happy to have that money now, so they could use it to control the country longer and more effectively. Tony From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:25:37 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:25:21 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:45:45 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rice!hsdndev!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc9.harvard.edu!gorokho1 From: gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu (Zhenya Gorokhovsky) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: DO NOT POST GARBAGE HERE Message-Id: <1991Aug20.224708.2700@husc3.harvard.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 02:47:07 GMT References: <296E9D374A1F000902@OBERLIN.BITNET> Organization: Harvard University Science Center Lines: 14 Nntp-Posting-Host: husc9.harvard.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO IMPORTANT! For now this newsgroup should carry only INFORMATION -- news updates. If you have anything else to say, i.e. comments, questions etc. you can post them on soc.human.rights or talk.politics.misc, groups which are not being fed to Moscow. Guys in Moscow should be getting HELP here and the only way we can help them is to promptly distribute whatever they sent us and sent them back what we learn from independent sources (CNN...). They probably want to know INFORMATION about our government's reaction on the events ... PLEASE POST ONLY INFORMATION! Please no postings backing me, ONLY INFORMATION -- Zhenya Gorokhosvky| gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:26:10 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:25:53 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:45:52 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!fcom.cc.utah.edu!npd.novell.com!newsun!tporczyk From: tporczyk@novell.com (Tony Porczyk) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Putsch or coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug20.180433.28406@novell.com> Date: 20 Aug 91 18:04:33 GMT References: <12593@ncar.ucar.edu> Sender: usenet@novell.com (The Netnews Manager) Organization: Novell, Inc. Lines: 9 Nntp-Posting-Host: na Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO gary@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes: > I think "coup" is more appropriate, since those who are trying to overthrow > the government are within the government. A "putsch" is an overthrow from > *outside* the government, a la Hitler's failed Beer Hall Putsch. Agree. Also, I believe putsch is supposed to involve masses, ala revolution. Tony From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:26:41 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:26:24 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:46:30 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!IQTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: The coup, information, and coverage Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 21:51:43 GMT References: Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 19 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO On Tue, 20 Aug 1991 21:36:58 GMT John Reynolds said: >>>>>> On 19 Aug 91 23:59:58 GMT, oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) said: > >Oleg> No, it could not be averted by economic bribes. The coup seems to be by >Oleg> a group of high-placed government and military officials who were in fear >Oleg> of losing power in the current wave of transition to a decentralized >Oleg> confederacy. These are the very people who have been aacusing the West >of >Oleg> trying to take over and destabilize USSR through econiomic aid. > >Wouldn't it have been impossible even to have CONCEIVED a coup attempt >if Gorbachev had, for example, returned from the G7 conference with >solid offers of economic aid? No. *Aid* has *NOTHING* (repeat: NOTHING) to do /c it. Power does. As each of Gorby's reforms were put into place, these people were standing to lose more and more and more and ... ad nauseum. I still think aid is a carrot. No carrot, no motivation. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:27:45 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:27:28 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:47:18 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!netcomsv!jackal From: jackal@netcom.COM (Christopher Grant) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup "Can it happen here?" Message-Id: <1991Aug20.214653.21706@netcom.COM> Date: 20 Aug 91 21:46:53 GMT References: <26817@well.sf.ca.us> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 23 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Waitaminit.... Once again, there seems to be a belief that American troops are grown in vats somewhere, or are all pre-programmed Terminators. It is not wise to assume that the American military will blindly and fully follow a program of governemt oppression. In China, during T-Square, and even now in the Soviet Union, there is some question as to the loyalty of many of the military units involved-- and those are governments with MUCH more control over their ranks than America. No, the government here would not have the full cooperation of us servicemembers. We believe in the Constitution, and many of us own firearms of our own. American soldiers have friends, and families, and loved ones among civilian society, and the though of turning our cannon on them is not an option. I believe I speak for a vast majority of US military personnel, a belief I back up with personal discussions with many servicemembers during my six years in the Army. Chris Grant jackal@netcom.COM From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:28:17 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:28:00 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:47:38 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!hela!wotan.iti.org!scs From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 15:04:52 GMT References: <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> <1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com> Sender: usenet@iti.org (Hela News Manager) Organization: Industrial Technology Institute Lines: 18 Nntp-Posting-Host: wotan.iti.org Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com (Dennis Rivard) writes: >In article <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: >Has anyone noticed that many of the people that are now saying "If we >had only helped him more, this wouldn't have happened" are the same >ones that said "We shouldn't help them until we see more reforms"???? >Food for thought... I'll bite. No, I haven't noticed that. In fact, it seems more the opposite. Yesterday on the radio (NPR) I heard someone saying "I was right, we shouldn't have given them anything." Sorry, didn't catch the name. Can you site a specific person who did that backpedal? -- Simmons' Law Of Volunteerism (iterate as needed): `Whoever said ``Whoever said ```Lead, follow, or get out of the way!''' didn't understand the circumstances'' didn't understand the circumstances.' From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:28:49 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:28:32 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:47:43 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!convex!tighe From: tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 15:05:40 GMT References: <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> <1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Texas Lines: 15 Nntp-Posting-Host: convex1.convex.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com> rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com (Dennis Rivard) writes: >Has anyone noticed that many of the people that are now saying "If we >had only helped him more, this wouldn't have happened" are the same >ones that said "We shouldn't help them until we see more reforms"???? I also notice that they are the same ones that say we shouldn't meddle into the internal affairs of other countries, at least when those other countries are El Salvador, Nicaragua, Grenada, Phillipines, Nam, etc. But the USSR is different... -- +--------------------------------------------+ |Mike Tighe, tighe@convex.com, (214) 497-4206| +--------------------------------------------+ From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:29:20 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:29:04 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:47:51 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!lll-winken!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!IPWP400 From: IPWP400@indycms.bitnet (phil paxton) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Contacting the News People & Local Media Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 22:09:48 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 11 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO How is everyone handling the fact that a line is indeed running out of the USSR and that information is available? I know of at least one (I'm sure the others would drool at the chance) local station interested in obtaining as much information as possible regarding what is going on and still providing anonymity. Your thoughts? ---------------+--------------------------+----------------------------- phil paxton | ipwp400@indycms.bitnet | ipwp400@indycms.iupui.edu ---------------+--------------------------+----------------------------- From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:29:52 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:29:36 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:48:02 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!gasser@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu From: gasser@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Michael Gasser) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: News from other republics Summary: Response to coup in Baltics, Ukraine Message-Id: <1991Aug20.181704.1255@news.cs.indiana.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 23:16:54 GMT Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO The Estonian Parliament has declared complete independence from the USSR. The Latvian Parliament has apparently been taken by Soviet troops. A Ukrainian official (I'm not sure who) declared the coup invalid (or some such term) in the Ukraine. Georgian President Gamsakhurdia called on other governments to recognize the 6 republics seeking independence. -- Michael Gasser Indiana University, Computer Science Department Bloomington, IN 47405 USA gasser@cs.indiana.edu (812) 855-7078 From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:30:24 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:30:08 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:48:08 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!cunixa.cc.columbia.edu!gmw1 From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: email in the ussr Message-Id: <1991Aug21.034905.12398@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 03:49:05 GMT Sender: usenet@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (The Network News) Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu Organization: Columbia University Lines: 15 Originator: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO With all the goings-on in the USSR, I'm curious. Are there UUCP sites in the USSR proper? If so, how are the feeds arranged? Over the regular telephone system there? I was always under the impression that computers don't exist in the russian private sector. I assume that any connections that exist are on the mainframe level? If anyone knows the details about the technical facilities there, I'd be interested. Thanks. -- Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ. "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu to be seriously considered as a means of N2GPZ in ham radio circles communication. The device is inherently of 72355,1226 on CI$ no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877 From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:30:57 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:30:40 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:48:56 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!IQTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Big Brother Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 15:03:56 GMT References: Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 24 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO On Wed, 21 Aug 1991 15:17:42 +0100 said: >Someone asked whether it is safe to discuss net details here. > >The Baltics Republics list ha salways assumed that it is tapped by the >KGB. We make a policy point of not identifying sources during >crisis periods. We started as a means of setting up nets but ceased >publicising net addresses in january. > >Some of the blith chattering on other lists the last couple of >days >has horrifed us. I have no doubt taht if the coup had succeeded >list archives would have provided good clues for purges in teh USSR. > >Edis Bevan >BALT-L editor Gee, so would the .sig files included by those posting from the USSR, no? When mailing & street addresses are posted, I have no doubts but what that would be pretty easy to use to find those persons. I would have thought those addresses would have been removed by those in the USSR before sending anything out. Chattering aside, the biggest risk was being increased by leaving that information on. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:31:29 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:31:12 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:49:14 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!sun4!jwm From: sun4!jwm (James W. Meritt) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Soviet Bulletin #25 Message-Id: <1991Aug21.153020.10019@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 15:30:20 GMT References: <9108211307.AA10917@cat.syr.edu> Sender: news@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory Lines: 14 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <9108211307.AA10917@cat.syr.edu> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" writes: }> While Cube, Iraq, the PLO and Libya applauded the fall of Gorbachev } } I'd like some background qualifiers to this statement. } especially other than %@#^! I read this an AP and UPI yesterday. Amidst much cheering. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily represent those opinions of this or any other organization. The facts, however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone. jwm@sun4.jhuapl.edu or jwm@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu or meritt%aplvm.BITNET From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:32:00 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:31:44 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:50:29 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!news.bbn.com!mips2!granite!rivard From: rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com (Dennis Rivard) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 11:27:03 GMT References: <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc. Lines: 22 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: >As to the G7, they had little to do with it. Throwing money at the Soviet >Union could not possibly have helped it. The vital factor that forced the >hand of the hardliners was the impending signing of the Union Treaty; with >the signing of that treaty, the structure of the Soviet Union would have >been altered to such a degree that it would have been almost impossible to >preserve their positions of power and influence. This was the last chance >they were going to have, and they took it. Has anyone noticed that many of the people that are now saying "If we had only helped him more, this wouldn't have happened" are the same ones that said "We shouldn't help them until we see more reforms"???? Food for thought... -- School:drivard@cs.ulowell.edu | Those who know/What's best for us/| Work: rivard@granite.ma30.bull.com | Must rise and save us from | My opinions are my own. | ourselves. - "Witch Hunt" Rush | From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:32:34 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:32:16 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:50:39 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!gatech!prism!ccastmg From: ccastmg@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael G. Goldsman) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: News of the morning (EST that is...) Message-Id: <35173@hydra.gatech.EDU> Date: 21 Aug 91 11:26:16 GMT Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Lines: 22 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO 7:15 eastern standard time CNN is repoyrting that Yeltsin is saying that the Coup leaders are trying to leave moscow on a okane. They are saying that its an unconfirmed report. they are also reporting that a delagaton may be able to visit Gorbachov. they say that yeltsin will not be a member due to security reasons. The tone of the commentators has become guardedly optimistic. Only time will tell... John Major is about to speak.. See you guys later --------------------- POWER TO THE PEOPLE!! --------------------- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mike Goldsman __o o__ o__ o__ o__ 36004 Ga Tech Station _ \<,_ _.>/ _ _.>/ _ _.>/ _ _.>/ _ Atlanta, Georgia 30332 (_)/ (_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_) From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:33:38 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:33:21 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:51:11 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!apple!ig!w107zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.dbp.de!elsn4000 From: elsn4000@w107zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.dbp.de (Frank Elsner) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Western folks consider posting your addresses Message-Id: <9108210736.AA17180@w107zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de*> Date: 21 Aug 91 11:43:22 GMT References: <91.6:35.pm*> Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: Frank Elsner Lines: 6 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Here is my Smail address: Frank Elsner Marschnerstr. 47 D-1000 Berlin 45 Germany <- Thanks, Gorby. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:34:41 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:34:24 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:51:56 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!think.com!sdd.hp.com!wupost!uunet!lll-winken!ames!ig!cleveland.freenet.edu!ai260 From: ai260@cleveland.freenet.edu ("J. Fisher") Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: friends & foes of the putsch Message-Id: <9108210747.AA17601@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 07:47:41 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: ai260@cleveland.freenet.edu Lines: 19 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO On Mon Aug 19 1991 JOHN%ANASAZ.BITNET@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (John Moore) replied quite caustically to <35056@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1111a@prism.gatech.EDU (Vincent Fox) VF> There are a lot of things that really stick in my craw about this whole VF> thing. Number 1 would be that we could have possibly averted all this VF> by some shipments of wheat, some tractors, and some experts. But NOOOO... VF> Wouldn't be prudent, gotta wait for more reforms before we think about VF> helping the Soviets. Sure it would have cost billions, but considerably VF> less than all those new weapons our military will now want to buy. JM> All evidence points to the coup to reject the union treaty. Our aid JM> would have had no effect on that. Why don't you take your AMERICAN JM> politcs to talk.politics or misc.headlines. It seems to me that VF is sympathetic to your 'cause'. Why are you telling him to take a hike? I doubt that you really want to alienate people... or...? From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:35:13 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:34:56 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:52:00 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!ig!samford.bitnet!GLWARNER From: GLWARNER@samford.bitnet (THE GAR) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Kasparov on Tonight Show Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 05:55:55 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Organization: Samford University Computer Services Lines: 19 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Kasparov got the last slot on the show, where there is really not enough time left to say very much. He spoke of vacationing in Malibu, and a bit about Bobby Fischer. But the rest of the time he talked about playing chess for the most part. He did mention that probably 90% of Soviets were against the coup (in his estimation) and that he had not played any chess since it began. All he has done is watched CNN. BTW. If anyone wants a list of Fax numbers for major media offices, let me know. I have one that came off Peace Net back about six months ago. There are probably a couple hundred numbers on the list, or I would just go ahead and post it. /++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++\ ! Later + Systems Programmer ! ! Gary Warner + Samford University Computer Services ! ! + II TIMOTHY 2:15 ! \+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/ From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:35:45 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:35:28 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:52:11 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!ig!siucvmb.bitnet!ST8172 From: ST8172@siucvmb.bitnet Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: The 'Gang of Eight' Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 04:44:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 23 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In an interview aired tonight on ABC Television's Nightline with Boris Yeltsin barricaded inside the Russian Parliament Building, Yeltsin alluded to certain unnamed individuals in the background who are secretly weilding the power behind the emergency committee. If this is true, I wonder if the sudden illnesses of Pavlov, Yanov and Krushkov can best be viewed as a purge of the 'Gang of Eight'-- either for opposition or lack of resolve to carry out the coop. What do you think of this (admittedly conspiracy) theory? Are the 'Gang of Eight' really calling the shots or are there other, more sinister figures in the background? If so, who might these people be? Any ideas? ---- To all are courageous Russian friends: Keep the faith! and remember the words of the great spiritual of the American Civil Rights Movement 'We Shall Overcome' The whole world is behind you, and you shall overcome! Jerry Probst From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:36:18 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:36:01 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:52:17 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!stanford.edu!leland.Stanford.EDU!news From: minch@lotka.Stanford.EDU (Eric Minch) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Keywords: foreign intervention Message-Id: <1991Aug21.160106.20955@leland.Stanford.EDU> Date: 21 Aug 91 16:01:06 GMT References: <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> Sender: news@leland.Stanford.EDU (Mr News) Organization: DSG, Stanford University Lines: 29 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) writes: .. [original elided] .. > I also notice that they are the same ones that say we shouldn't meddle into > the internal affairs of other countries, at least when those other > countries are El Salvador, Nicaragua, Grenada, Phillipines, Nam, etc. But > the USSR is different... > > -- > +--------------------------------------------+ > |Mike Tighe, tighe@convex.com, (214) 497-4206| > +--------------------------------------------+ Although this thread seems to be wandering from politics.soviet, I can't resist pointing out the differences between 1) humanitarian aid and military aid; 2) aid to a government and aid to anti-government underground [dare we mention covert actions?]; 3) aid to a popular constitutional government and aid to a repressive dictatorship. These are not unimportant distinctions. **************************** * Eric Minch---------------Disclaimer: These are my opinions, not my * Epistemic Artisan-------- employer's (after all, they're * Stanford Genetics Dept.-- free!) **************************** From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:36:51 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:36:34 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:52:21 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!usc!apple!ig!cleveland.freenet.edu!ai260 From: ai260@cleveland.freenet.edu ("J. Fisher") Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: The West missed an opportunity Message-Id: <9108210807.AA18710@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 08:07:43 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: ai260@cleveland.freenet.edu Lines: 46 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO On: Tue Aug 20 1991 dierick%KETJE.ENET.DEC.COM@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (Dominique Dierick) said: > When I hear president Bush and prime minister Major demand the > re-installation of Gorbatchov I find it kind of hypocrite. For > years Gorbatchov has asked for financial support but he really > got peanuts from us. The German cancellor Kohl was the only one > willing to support fully. Now it is too late again. If we had > given Gorbatchov our full support, hewould have been more popular > in the Soviet Union and the hard liners wouldn't have found > support for their coup. > > Let's be realistic. I have watched BBC last night and there are > NO signs of massive resistance. A couple of thousand people on > the streets is not what is going to stop the junta in power now. > The people in the SU, especially in major cities have lack of > food and essential medical care, that's what they will remember > most from the Gorbatchov time. For most of them everything is > better then Gorbatchov. If people don't have to fight daily for > survival they will have the time to be busy with politics. > > I am affraid there is not much we can do to help the people > there. We can stop our tiny little bit of financial suppport we > do give to the SU, but that won't make a difference. What else > can be done ? Going in with armed forces ? You got to be joking ! > Military the SU is not a third world country. > > The only thing we can hope for is that there won't get people > killed. Peace for you over there ! > > Had to give my impression on this sad event, and these are my > personal impressions... > > Dominique I would agree wholeheartedly... and add that President Gorbachev didn't-- IMO-- get the internal support he should have. I would imagine that for many he's a more appealing figure than he was last yesterday. JF ai260@cleveland.freenet.edu -or- ai260%cleveland.freenet.edu@cunyvm Familiarity breeds contempt. --Mark Twain From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:37:25 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:37:08 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:52:27 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!usc!apple!ig!samford.bitnet!GLWARNER From: GLWARNER@samford.bitnet (THE GAR) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: More Nightline Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 05:25:35 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Organization: Samford University Computer Services Lines: 51 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Nightline had a panel of experts on, and asked them about the situation. Brit Hume (a reporter who works at the White House in America) says that the coup "lacks the brutal efficiency that we have come to associate with the Soviets" and says that their hesitancy to use force has problem doomed the coup. Zbigniew Brzenzenski says that the General Strike must be heeded if the coup is to be stopped. Former Ambassador Matlock says that the coup shows a lack of planning and that if the coup moves against Yeltzin now, it will only make him a martyr and guarantee civil war. Pierre Sallinger (a political analyst) says that the coup came about as a result of Gorbachev giving up too much in the START treaties, and the Union Treaty that was about to be signed. Nightline then spoke with Colonel Viktor Alksnis of the Soviet Air Force. Alksnis says that Marshall Yazor has definitely NOT resigned and that he had spoken recently with Yazor's adjutant to confirm this. He also claimed that Westerners were over exagerrating Yeltzin's influence. He said that the strikes were not popular and that for only 20 or 30,000 people in a country of millions to be paying attention to Yeltzin was insignificant. Alksnis had proposed a similar emergency committee about 6 months ago. He pointed out that his proposal was for a constitutional committee, but he said that he was pleased with the overall results so far. He also said that the rumours that an attack against Yeltzin had been planned were obviously proven wrong. Vladimir Posner was also on the program. I gather that he is something like a talk show host in Moscow. He said that Pavlov, Yazov, and the KGB chief were "rats on a sinking ship", and that the committee was moving so slowly because they were "not very bright people. You saw them at the press conference today" he said. Did they look like people who could make intelligent decisions. He called them "boorish". Posner also pointed out that roughly 25% of the Soviet public were in favor of the coup and agreed that they were doing the right things. I go now. Garry Kasparov is about to come on the Tonight Show. /++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++\ ! Later + Systems Programmer ! ! Gary Warner + Samford University Computer Services ! ! + II TIMOTHY 2:15 ! \+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/ From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:37:59 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:37:41 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:52:31 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!ig!samford.bitnet!GLWARNER From: GLWARNER@samford.bitnet (THE GAR) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Nightline Report Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 04:45:37 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Organization: Samford University Computer Services Lines: 48 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I am watching the American news program, NIGHTLINE. There was a description of the first fatalities of the coup, with some camera footage. It seems four armored personnel carriers were attacked by a mob of people as they moved in the direction of the "White House". Moloktov cocktails caused one of the APCs to catch on fire, and they ended up retreating. However, they fired into the air, and some say into the crowd as they retreated. One person is dead of a gunshot wound, and two others are dead from being run over by the retreating vehicles. An estimated twelve others were injured in unspecified ways. Other things in the news included talk of Pavlov, Yazov, and the KGB director and their respective "illnesses". Pavlov was confirmed to be removed from the committee "because of high blood pressure". Americans in the state department said that there were too many Soviet leaders suddenly taking ill to be believable. Other footage showed Yeltzin and Shevarnasi speaking to an enormous crowd, and people passing bricks and boards down a row to be used to help build barricades around the Russian President's base. Next they will be showing Diane Sawyer's interview with the President of Russia. Oh, they also have shown excerpts that were received by a clandestine fax machine network. I wonder what the media would say about us! I think we should not attract media attention by telling reporters about our sources. What is the consensus of the group. Tell them? Or no? I know my local TV stations would think this very important. They are 3interviewing everyone who has ever been to the USSR in the entire state it seems like. May God bless and protect the people of the Soviet Union. /++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++\ ! Later + Systems Programmer ! ! Gary Warner + Samford University Computer Services ! ! + II TIMOTHY 2:15 ! \+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/