From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 22:58:35 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 22:58:17 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:20:10 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!ox.com!caen!sdd.hp.com!wupost!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!milton!dmiles From: dmiles@milton.u.washington.edu (David Miles) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: . "--" Summary: translation of Article 6501 Message-Id: <1991Aug21.062522.14683@milton.u.washington.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 06:25:22 GMT Organization: University of Washington Lines: 42 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Expires: References: Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Keywords: In article postmaster@brokin.msk.su writes: > > oT "b-i-s". > kONGRESS ROSSIJSKIH DELOWYH KRUGOW. > (pOLNYJ TEKST POZVE). iNFORMACIQ I TELEFONNYJ RAZGOWOR. > wSEM, KOMU DOROGI ROSTKI ZAWOEWANIJ DEMOKRATII. > pROSIM mOSKWI^EJ ORGANIZOWATX OBORONU wERHOWNOGO SOWETA. sI- > TUACIQ BLIZKA K KRITI^ESKOJ. wOZMOVNO PRIMENENIE PUT^ISTAMI > OGNESTRELXNOGO ORUVIQ I, WOZMOVNO, OTRAWLQ@]IH WE]ESTW. > pROSIM ORGANIZOWATX PODDERVKU WO WSEH REGIONAH STRANY. > oT NAS ZAWISIT NA[E BUDU]EE. > pROSXBA RAZOSLATX \TO SOOB]ENIE WSEM. > rADIO "|ho moskwy" RABOTAET NA SREDNIH WOLNAH 1000-1200 KgC. > sITUACIQ NA SAMOM DELE BLIZKA K KRITI^ESKOJ. > > "b-i-s" > > from "b-i-s" Congress of Russian Business Circles (Full text to follow). Information and telephone conversation. To all who cherish the hard-earned fledgling democracy. We ask all Muscovites to organize the defense of the Supreme Soviet. The situation is nearly critical. The putschists may resort to firearms or, possibly, poisonous substances. We ask that you organize support in all regions of the country. Our future depends on us. Please pass this on to everyone. Radio "Echo Moscow" is working on short wave at 1000-1200 KHz. The situation is really nearly critical. "b-i-s" From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 22:59:09 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 22:58:52 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:21:02 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!ox.com!caen!spool.mu.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!usage.csd.unsw.oz.au!s2107158@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au From: s2107158@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (Patrick Sora Morris-Suzuki) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,misc.headlines Subject: YAZOV,PAVLOV RESIGN!! Message-Id: <2261@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au> Date: 20 Aug 91 22:30:30 GMT Sender: news@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 11 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO ABC (THe AUSTRALIAN Broadcasting Corporation) Radio Natinal has reported that Dmitri Yazov and Valentin Pavlov have resigned. Dmitri Yazov resigned claiming that the military had no business in the government! Valentin Pavlov resigned supposedly due to high blood pressure. Also it is reported that an attack on the Russian parliament was expected at 1 AM (according to Russian Federation Sources), by the "Blue Berets". ALso there were unconfimed report a couple of hours ago that Kruchyev was about to resign. I havce heard nothing since. -Is the coup collapsing? -Patrick Morris-Suzuki From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 22:59:42 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 22:59:25 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:21:08 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!gatech!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cs.wvu.wvnet.edu!wvnvms.wvnet.edu!un033324 From: un033324@wvnvms.wvnet.edu Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: CNN,the fate of USSr Internet, Hopefully some help to the people. Message-Id: <1991Aug20.194302.1739@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 00:44:24 GMT Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing Lines: 31 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO On the last showing of CNN world Report, They stated that the only viable news coming out from the area is from INTERFAX, Tass is not currently reliable. A problem has arisen from CNN's last report, though. They gave estimated numbers of Computers, Fax machines, et al... in the RFSFR... they also had an expose on email to-from Moscow. If the Soviet Government happened to see this, they might seriously try to destroy the Internet Links out. I know this is just theory and conjecture, but coming from russian folk, i seriously doubt that the links will exist for more than a day or two (I hope i'm wrong) TO ALL SOVIET FOLK WHO MIGHT SEE THIS! In my opinion, i truly feel that the link will come down and I think that you should consider all mail that goes out to be your last. Also, if you want someone to know who you are and that you were part of the computer links... send mail to the net or directly to me... I will do my part and keep a list of the last of the EMAIL-People. This was done by my family during the Bolshevik Revolution so that the relatives out of the country knew who was in danger, when they were last seen, where they were living, etc... I hope that I have not said anything out of order, if so I apologise. Do not clutter this net with flames directed towards me.. send it via email I thank you for the time... Avery Glasser 1064 Van Voorhis Rd J-321 Morgantown, WV 26505 VOICE PHONE 304 293 4738 UN033324@wvnvaxa.wvnet.edu amg0954%ceo@asv2.wvnet.edu <- use if the first is down fax to come in the night hopefully :) From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:00:48 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:00:32 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:22:22 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!spool.mu.edu!caen!malgudi!sunc!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!a1828 From: ussr_business@mindlink.bc.ca (Rein Stamm) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Business News From Leningrad Message-Id: <7124@mindlink.bc.ca> Date: 20 Aug 91 03:55:19 GMT Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada Lines: 74 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO >From Leningrad **************************************************************** DECLARATION OF ANATOLY SOBCHAK TO THE BUSINESSMEN OF ALL THE WORLD Leningrad, August 21, 1991, 5.00 am, Moscow time. After the political situation in the USSR became aggravated the Mayor of Leningrad Anatoly Sobchak gave an exclusive interview to the correspondent of the information agency "St. Petersburg Business News" to be distributed in the business circles of all the world. "I am forced to state, - said Anatoly Sobchak, - that the appearance of anti-constitutional State emergency committee on the Soviet political scene rouse the motivated apprehension of the businessmen in the world, concerning investments in the Soviet economy which have been already done or are going to be done". The risk of the foreign investments, as well as of the cooperation with commercial entities of our country, grew up considerably. But, as to Anatoly Sobchak, the situation can be predicted. It is now under the control of the legal authorities in a number of regions of the country and in Leningrad. The information, which comes from the different regions of the country tells about the growing resistance to the reactionaries and the solid position of the government of Russia as well as of very popular among the people the leader of Russia Boris Yeltzin, is very typical. These facts testify not only the strategical mistakes made by the so-called State emergency committee in their attempts to take the power, but also its unstable situation. Just at the moment, as to Anatoly Sobchak, there are three options of the possible development of events. The first one, being the most probable: after the resistance of the Yeltzin's government and the committee of Janaev-Pavlov the reaction will be suppressed in the nearest five-to-six days. The second one, which exists currently and will hardly remain: reactionaries will be able to control the situation only in some regions, but not in such strategically important as Moscow, Leningrad, Ukrain, Kazakhstan, the regions of Syberia. The fact, that the military divisions take the side of the legal power, will not allow Janaev-Pavlov to start the civil war, and being isolated, they will be forced to capitulate after some time. At last, the third option, which seems to me the less probable: The State emergency committee will take all the power in their hands. But even in this case, as Anatoly Sobchak said, the reactionaries will not be able to undertake something decisive as to the private investments, both foreign and soviet. "The reason to that, extremely negative sequences for the Soviet economy together with today's critical economic situation. It is not an accident, that former vice-president of the USSR Janaev, given all our distrust to any of his actions, on the press-conference on the 19th of August, declared about support of private initiatives - and he couldn't suggest anything else". Anatoly Sobchak said: "Understanding all the responsibility to our electors, law and foreign partners, and undertaking all the steps possible to suppress the reactionaries, Russian government has a right for political and economic support of the international community and business circles of all the world. Any support of the central government means the support of the reaction". Anatoly Sobchak said, that Leningrad municipal government, assisting the president of Russia Boris Yeltzin in restoring the order in the country, were continuing the work in organizing Free Enterprise Zone. *************************************************************** -- Rein Stamm ussr_business@mindlink.bc.ca Compuserve ID: 70650,3653 Vancouver B.C., Canada From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:01:21 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:01:04 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:22:29 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!IQTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: (none) Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 23:32:30 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 2 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO According to CBS News airing right now, three have apparently been killed, twelve injured. Tanks have fired into the air... From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:01:53 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:01:36 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:22:54 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!milton!dmiles From: dmiles@milton.u.washington.edu (David Miles) Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: ? Summary: translation of message 6471 Message-Id: <1991Aug21.073738.20114@milton.u.washington.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 07:37:38 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 145 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article polina@jumbo.hq.demos.su writes: >sANKT-pETERBURG: > >mY W OSNOWNOM KORMIMSQ SLUHAMI I WA[EJ INFORMACIEJ. >wOT NA[ KRATKIJ OBZOR SITUACII, KAK ONA WIDITSQ NAM PO SOSTOQNI@ NA 16:00. > >u NAS WOOB]E WSE DOWOLXNO SPOKOJNO. tRANSPORT, SWQZX I >MAGAZINY RABOTA@T, PO WSEMU GORODU RAZWE[ENY PLAKATY S OBRA]ENIQMI >I PRIKAZAMI eLXCINA I sOB^AKA. wSE GORODSKIE SLUVBY, MILICIQ I omon >POD^INQ@TSQ TOLXKO sOB^AKU I lENSOWETU, KOTORYJ ZASEDAL W^ERA WE^EROM >I BUDET ZASEDATX SEGODNQ. zASEDANIE W^ERA TRANSLIROWALOSX NA iSAAKIEW- >SKU@ PLO]ADX, SEGODNQ E]E I PO lENINGRADSKOMU RADIO. w^ERA PO TELEWIZORU >PEREDALI WYSTUPLENIE sOB^AKA, OB'QWIW[EGO PUT^ISTOW WNE ZAKONA. >sEGODNQ U NAS WSEOB]AQ POLITI^ESKAQ ZABASTOWKA. >mY, KONE^NO, RABOTAEM, NO CELIKOM PRISOEDINQEMSQ. >nA OSNOWNYH ZAWODAH TIPA kIROWSKOGO RABOTAET TOLXKO >NEPRERYWNOE PROIZWODSTWO, DRUGIE ZAWODY RABOTA@T ^ASTI^NO. >uTROM MNOGO NARODA SOBRALOSX NA dWORCOWOJ. pO E-mail PRIHODIT >MNOGO "REPORTAVEJ S RAZNYH MEST". >nA SEGODNQ UTROM "KOMENDANT lENINGRADA", ON VE KOMANDU@]IJ lENINGRADSKIM >WOENNYM OKRUGOM, ZANIMAET NEJTRALXNU@ POZICI@. w lENINGRADE WOISK >POKA NET, NO ESTX SLUHI, ^TO PODTQGIWAETSQ pSKOWSKAQ DIWIZIQ. > >s UTRA RABOTAET NEZAWISIMAQ RADIOSTANCIQ "bALTIKA" (401 M) I RADIO roks. >dNEM WY[LA GAZETA "smena" S OBRA]ENIQMI eLXCINA I }ELKANOWA (BYW[. DO 12 I@NQ >PRED. GORISPOLKOMA). > Saint Petersburg: We are getting by on rumors and your information. Here is our short summary of the situation as it appears to us at 1600 hours [on August 20] Things are generally quiet. City transport, communications and stores are working, there are posters hung all over the city with Yeltsin and Sobchak's appeals and orders. All the city services, the police and the OMON obey only Sobchak and the Lenin city council, which met yesterday evening and will meet today. The meeting was broadcast to St. Isaac's Square yesterday, and today also on Leningrad radio. Yesterday Sobchak appeared on television, declaring the putschists to be acting illegally. Today we are in a general political strike. We, of course, are working, but we fully support the strike. At the main factories like the Kirov only the continuous production continues, other factories are only partially working. In the morning many people gathered at the Palace Square. We are getting lots of "reports from all over" by email. This morning the "Leningrad Commandant," who commands the Leningrad military region, is taking a neutral position. There are no troops in Leningrad at the moment, but there are rumors that the Pskov division is being moved in. Since morning the radio station "Baltika" (401 M) and radio ROKS have been operating. Today the newspaper "Smena" came out with Yeltsin's appeal and Shchelkanov's (head of the city executive council until June 12) >bARNAUL: > > G.bARNAUL 20.08.91 21-00 MESTNOGO WREMENI. > > sOSTOQLOSX OB'EDINENNOE ZASEDANIE ISPOLKOMOW KRAEWOGO I >GORODSKOGO SOWETOW DEPUTATOW. nA ZASEDANII BYLO PRINQTO RE[ENIE >O TOM, ^TO gk~p QWLQETSQ NEKONSTITUCIONNYM I OB \TOM OTPRAWLENO >POSLANIE PREZIDENTU rsfsr. w POSTANOWLENII GOWORITSQ TAKVE, ^TO >KOMITET KONSTITUCIONNOGO NADZORA sssr OBQZAN PRINQTX RE[ENIE PO >POWODU gk~p. nA ZASEDANII PRINQTO OBRA]ENIE K NASELENI@ KRAQ >SOHRANQTX SPOKOJSTWIE I WYDERVKU, A TAKVE REKOMENDOWANO WOZDER- >VATXSQ OT ZABASTOWOK I PRODOLVATX TRUDITXSQ NA RABO^IH MESTAH. > > sEGODNQ W 19-00 SOSTOQLSQ MITING W PODDERVKU PRAWITELXSTWA >rsfsr I PREZIDENTA eLXCINA. pODROBNEE ZAWTRA. > > oBSTANOWKA W GORODE NORMALXNAQ. kAK BUDTO BY NI^EGO NE >PROISHODIT. > Barnaul: the city of Barnaul 20 Aug 91 2100 hours local time There was a joint meeting of the executive committees of the regional and city soviets of deputies. At the meeting it was concluded that the Emergency Committee is unconstitutional and a message was sent to the president of the RSFSR stating that conclusion. The resolution also says that the Committee for Constitutional Oversight of the USSR must make a decision regarding the Emergency Committee. At the meeting an appeal was made to the people of the territory to keep calm and maintain self-control and also to keep from striking and continue to work at their usual jobs. Today at 1900 hours there was a meeting to support the government of the RSFSR and President Yeltsin. Details tomorrow. The situation in the city is normal. As if nothing was happening. >tOMSK: > > 19 AWGUSTA 1991 GODA SOSTOQLSQ RAS[IRENNYJ PREZI- > DIUM tOMSKOGO OBLASTNOGO I GORODSKOGO sOWETOW NARODNYH > DEPUTATOW, NA KOTOROJ BYLO PRINQTO RE[ENIE PO POWODU zA- > QWLENIQ gOSUDARSTWENNOGO kOMITETA PO ~REZWY^AJNOMU pOLO- > VENI@ W sssr. ~LENY PREZIDIUMA, OBSUDIW INFORMACI@ O zA- > QWLENIE gk~p sssr, OBRA]ENII pREZIDENTA rsfsr K NARODU I > uKAZE pREZIDENTA rsfr POSTANOWILI, ^TO W TOMSKOJ OBLASTI > NET OSNOWANIJ DLQ WWEDENIQ ^REZWY^AJNOGO POLOVENIQ. rE- > [ENO PODDERVATX OBRA]ENIE RUKOWODSTWA rsfsr K NARODU, > NEUKOSNITELXNO WYPOLNQTX uKAZY pREZIDENTA rsfsr , PORU- > ^ITX KOMITETU PO TELEWIDENI@ I RADIOWE]ANI@ PO tOMSKOJ > OBLASTI PEREDAWATX OBRA]ENIE, uKAZ pREZIDENTA rsfsr, RE- > [ENIE RAS[IRENNOGO PREZIDIUMA DO 24.00 19 AWGUSTA 1991 > G. > sOGLASNO RE[ENI@ ^LENOW PREZIDIUMA BYLI PRINQTY > DOPOLNITELXNYE MERY PO OHRANE OB#KTOW VIZNEOBESPE^ENIQ I > OB]ESTWENNOGO PORQDKA. > 20 AWGUSTA SOSTOQLASX WSTRE^A PREDSEDATELQ OBLIS- > POLKOMA oLEGA kU[ELEWSKOGO, PRIBYW[EGO IZ mOSKWY, S VUR- > NALISTAMI. pREDSEDATELX OBLISPOLKOMA PODTWERDIL , ^TO > WSEMI WOZMOVNYMI SREDSTWAMI BUDET PODDERVIWATX pREZIDEN- > TA rsfsr I PRAWITELXSTWA rOSSII. > nA SOSTOQW[EJSQ W TOT VE DENX W tOMSKE WSTRE^E WE- > TERANOW aFGANISTANA SOBRAW[IESQ TAK VE PODDERVALI rOS- > SIJSKOE RUKOWODSTWO. Tomsk: On 19 August 1991 there was an expanded presidium meeting of the Tomsk regional and city soviets of people's deputies, at which a decision was made concerning the declaration of the USSR State Emergency Committee. The members of the presidium, having discussed information about the declaration of the USSR Emergency Committee's declaration, the appeal by the President of the RSFSR to the people and the ukase of the president of the RSFSR, resolved that there was no reason to declare a state of emergency in the Tomsk region. It was decided to support the appeal by the leadership of the RSFSR to the people, to strictly carry out the ukase of the President of the RSFSR, and to instruct the Committee for Television and Radio Broadcasting to announce the appeal and the ukase by the President of the USSR and the decision of the expanded presidium by 2400 hours on August 19, 1991. In accordance with the decision of the presidium supplementary measures were taken to safeguard life and social order. On August 20 the head of the regional executive committee, Oleg Kushelevsky, who had just returned from Moscow, met with reporters. He reaffirmed that the President of the RSFSR and the government of Russia would be supported in every way possible. On the same day at a meeting in Tomsk of veterans of Afghanistan those at the meeting also supported the Russian leadership. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:02:30 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:02:13 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:23:01 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!milton!dmiles From: dmiles@milton.u.washington.edu (David Miles) Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: . Summary: Translation of article 6742 Message-Id: <1991Aug21.075802.21558@milton.u.washington.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 07:58:02 GMT References: Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 26 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article any@jumbo.hq.demos.su writes: >w^ERA (19/08/91) nIVEGORODSKOE TELEWIDENIE ZA^ITALO OBRA]ENIE g~k I >T.eLXCINA b.n.,A TAKVE SOOB]ENIE O SOZYWE ^REZ- >WY^AJNOJ SESSII GORSOWETA ZA PODPISX@ ZAM.PREDSEDATELQ GORSO- >WETA sABA[NIKOWA.w^ERA W 17.00 SOSTOQLSQ MITING W PODDERVKU >eLXCINA S U^ASTIEM DEPUTATOW OBLASTI I RESPUBLIKI.sEGODNQ W >17.00 SOSTOQTSQ MITINGI W CENTRE GORODA I NA aWTOZAWODE,GDE >BUDET SOZDAN SWOJ STA^KOM.fUNKCIONIRUET GORODSKOJ STA^- >KOM(TEL.8 8312-39-01-42).zAREGISTRIROWANY 5 KRUPNYH PREDPRIQ- >TIJ,OB'QWIW[IH ZABASTOWKU.W GORODE OBSTANOWKA SPOKOJNAQ,WOEN- >NYH NE WIDNO.oDNAKO OTSUTSWUET DOSTOWERNAQ INFORMACIQ O POLO- >VENII W STRANE I mOSKWE. Yesterday (19 Aug 91) Nizhny Novgorod television read the appeal of the Emergency Committee and of B. N. Yeltsin, and also an announcement of an emergency session of the city soviet signed by the deputy head of the city soviet, Sabashchnikov. Yesterday at 1700 hours there was a demonstration in support of Yeltsin, which deputies from the region and the republic attended. Today at 1700 hours there is a demonstration in the city center and one at the automobile factory, where a strike committtee will be formed. There is now a functioning city strike committee (telephone 8 8312-39-01-42). Five large enterprises are listed as announcing strikes. The situation in the city is calm, no troops are in evidence. However there is a lack of reliable information about the situation in the rest of the country and in Moscow. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:03:03 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:02:46 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:23:25 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!veritas!oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: A message from Moscow Message-Id: <1991Aug21.011840.1880@Veritas.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 01:18:40 GMT References: <15358@ulysses.att.com> Organization: VERITAS Software Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <15358@ulysses.att.com> grass@ulysses.att.com writes: > By the way, I am fed > up that this craziness will soon be extended to any newsgroup at all. The way I read it: >--------- In Russian -------------- > Vprochem > ya nayeyus' eti pridurki nedolgo protyanut pri lyubom rasklade. "On the other hand, I hope these dweebs will not be able to pull it off for long in any case." He/she seems to be referring to the coup. -- DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586 From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:03:35 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:03:18 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:23:31 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!veritas!oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,misc.headlines,alt.good.news Subject: Re: Yazov Message-Id: <1991Aug21.012850.3664@Veritas.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 01:28:50 GMT References: <1991Aug20.163652.20392@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu> Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet Organization: VERITAS Software Lines: 32 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug20.163652.20392@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu> bill@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu (Bill Roth) writes: >In article avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su writes: >>Subject: qZOW >> >>u NAS PO RADIO PEREDALI ^TO qZOW OTKAZALSQ OT >>U^ASTIQ W kOMITETE -- ZAQWIL ^TO ON NI^EGO NE >>ZNAET I NIKOGDA W NEGO NE WHODIL >> >>kROME TOGO PEREDALI ^TO mI[A PEREWEZEN W mOSKWU NA BOMBARDIROW]IKE >> >>wSE \TO IDET SO SSYLKOJ NA |ho moskwy >>zARABOTALA LI \TA RADIOSTANCIQ ? >>----------------------------------------------------------------- >>Igor E. Chechik -- postmaster of St. Peterburg (Leningrad), USSR >Could someone translate this please? "Our [local] radio just broadcast that Yazov refused to participare in the [coup] Committee -- he declared that he knows nothing [about it] and was never a part of it. "Also, it was broadcast that Misha [Gorbachev] was flown to Moscow in a bomber, "All this was credited to 'Echo of Moscow' "Is radiostation broadcasting again?" -- DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586 From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:04:45 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:04:27 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:23:45 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!sgi!cdp!christic From: cdp!christic Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Radio Moscow Message-Id: <1483700009@cdp> Date: 20 Aug 91 11:31:00 GMT References: <21232@rsiatl.dixie.com> Lines: 15 Nf-Id: #R:rsiatl.dixie.com:21232:cdp:1483700009:000:710 Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!christic Aug 20 04:31:00 1991 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Don't be too hard on Radio Moscow. None of their regular voices (with their smooth American accents) were heard during the broadcast last night. It's the same story for all of the Soviet media: They've shunted aside the regular journalists and put hacks on the air. (That's my assumption.) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Lang 151251507 CHRISTIC telex Christic Institute christic PeaceNet 202-529-0140 BBS christic@igc.org Internet 202-797-8106 voice uunet!pyramid!cdp!christic UUCP 202-462-5138 fax cdp!christic%labrea@stanford Bitnet From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:05:51 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:05:34 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:25:36 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!isi.edu!lpress From: lpress@isi.edu (Laurence I. Press) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Talk to the general media? Message-Id: <18914@venera.isi.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 23:59:51 GMT Reply-To: lpress@venera.isi.edu (Laurence I. Press) Organization: USC-Information Sciences Institute Lines: 11 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Two people have posted messages regarding intention to speak about the net to the general media (radio, tv, papers). Is there not a danger that by telling the media that the Internet and Demos/Relcom exist we can get them busted? What do you think? Does the KGB know about the Net anyhow? Do we endanger the people and the connection by speaking in public? Do we help the cause by publicizing it? Larry Press From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:06:25 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:06:07 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:26:20 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!veritas!oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,misc.headlines Subject: Re: 13 Message-Id: <1991Aug21.014033.4266@Veritas.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 01:40:33 GMT References: Organization: VERITAS Software Lines: 50 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su writes: >sWIDETELXSTWO O^EWIDCA >nA iSAAKIEWSKOJ PLO]ADI PERED ZDANIEM mARIINSKOGO DWORCA >PRODOLVAETSQ MITING. pLO]ADX NAPOLOWINU ZAPOLNENA L@DXMI. >u KRYLXCA STOIT FURGON tw (IDET TRANSLQCIQ IZ lENSOWETA?). >nA KRYLXCE NESKOLXKO rOSSIJSKIH FLAGOW, SBOKU - ^ELOWEK S >^ERNYM FLAGOM. > tOLPA SOSTOIT IZ OBY^NYH L@DEJ, MNOGO VEN]IN, PENSIONE- >ROW, NA PLO]ADKE KRYLXCA IGRA@T MALENXKIE DETI. > oSNOWNYE LOZUNGI - "dOLOJ gkp~ - kpss", >"fA[IZM NE PROJDET","rOSSIQ, PODNIMAJSQ S KOLEN". >oTDELXNYE KU^KI L@DEJ GRUPPIRU@TSQ WOKRUG TEH, KTO PRINES >S SOBOJ RADIOPRIEMNIKI. oSNOWNAQ ^ASTX L@DEJ SLU[AET ORATOROW. > nASTROENIE - BEZUSLOWNAQ PODDERVKA eLXCINA, lENSOWETA, >sOB^AKA. l@DI DOWOLXNO SPOKOJNY I RE[ITELXNY. > bARRIKAD NET. nABEREVNAQ mOJKI PEREGOROVENA POWALENNYMI >STROITELXNYMI WAGON^IKAMI. nA NIH NADPISI - "mY NE RABY", >"sWOBODU!" > nA SREDNIH WOLNAH RABOTAET "rADIO bALTIKI". rABOTAET >NESKOLXKO SWOBODNYH RADIOSTANCIJ W L@BITELXSKOM DIAPAZONE >KOROTKIH WOLN. > mILICII NEMNOGO. omonA NE WIDNO. mOLODYE L@DI PREDLAGA- >@T POMO]X W ZA]ITE lENSOWETA. > sOOB]AETSQ , ^TO PO NEKOTORYM [OSSE (W T.^. PO kIEWSO- >MU) DWIVUTSQ W NAPRAWLENII lENINGRADA WOJSKOWYE ^ASTI. > wSEH, KTO IMEET INFORMACI@ O PEREDWIVENII WOJSK PROSQT >ZWONITX W [TAB lENSOWETA: > 310-00-00 > 319-98-57 Important portions of the above: The mood in Leningard -- unconditional support of Yeltzin, Leningard Soviet and of Sobchak. People are fairly calm and resolute. "Baltic Radio" is broadcasting on the AM band. Several independent are broadcasting on the amateur short wave bands. There isn't much militia. Omon troops have not been seen. Youths offer help in defending Leningrad Soviet. There are news of military brigades moving toward Leningrad on several highways. The phone numbers below are for people to report troop movements to the LenSoviet headquarters. -- DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586 From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:06:58 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:06:41 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:26:25 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!wupost!hsdndev!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc9.harvard.edu!gorokho1 From: gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu (Zhenya Gorokhovsky) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Yazov Message-Id: <1991Aug20.204608.2697@husc3.harvard.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 00:46:07 GMT References: Organization: Harvard University Science Center Lines: 35 Nntp-Posting-Host: husc9.harvard.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su writes: >From: chech@kaija.spb.su (Igor E. Chechik) >Organization: Independent Affiliate "KAIJA", Leningrad, USSR >Date: Tue, 20 Aug 91 16:23:23 +0300 (MSD) >Return-Receipt-To: chech@post.kaija.spb.su >Subject: qZOW > >u NAS PO RADIO PEREDALI ^TO qZOW OTKAZALSQ OT >U^ASTIQ W kOMITETE -- ZAQWIL ^TO ON NI^EGO NE >ZNAET I NIKOGDA W NEGO NE WHODIL > >kROME TOGO PEREDALI ^TO mI[A PEREWEZEN W mOSKWU NA BOMBARDIROW]IKE > >wSE \TO IDET SO SSYLKOJ NA |ho moskwy >zARABOTALA LI \TA RADIOSTANCIQ ? Some kind of translation: -------------- It has been said by the local (Leningrad) radio that Yazov (the Minister of Defense) have rejected claims that he is a member of the Emergency Committee, he have said that he "knows nothing and never was part of it". Another message was that Misha (Gorbachev) was secretly transported to Moscow on a military plane. The source of this info is said to be "EHO MOSKWY" ("Echo of Moscow") ------------ Sorry for the quality of my English. -- Zhenya/Zev/Eugene/Yevgeny Gorokhovsky::Me does not tell English too well. Internet: gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu ::All flames shall be written Bitnet : GOROKHOVSKY@HUHEPL ::in Russian in order to work. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:07:31 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:07:14 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:26:35 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!veritas!oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Yeah, right... Message-Id: <1991Aug21.014255.4376@Veritas.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 01:42:55 GMT References: <48703@netnews.upenn.edu> Organization: VERITAS Software Lines: 10 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <48703@netnews.upenn.edu> dmahoney@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Dale Mahoney) writes: >Number 1: A disorganized militia would be worthless The ONLY hope is that the military will throw in with Yeltzin and other elected leaders. -- DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586 From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:08:04 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:07:47 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:26:43 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rice!hsdndev!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc9.harvard.edu!gorokho1 From: gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu (Zhenya Gorokhovsky) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Message-Id: <1991Aug21.005523.2705@husc3.harvard.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 04:55:22 GMT References: Organization: Harvard University Science Center Lines: 54 Nntp-Posting-Host: husc9.harvard.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Translation of the Posting from DEMOS, Leningrad ---------- 4:00 AM, August 20 , Leningrad Despite prohibition from the local CPSU committee (obkom), with help from the Leningrad OMON [troops of the special designation] were printed last day's issues of the independent newspapers "Smena" and "Nevskoye Znamya" Newsapapers published decrees of the President of Russia [Yeltsyn], call to Citizen's of Russia, protest of workers of the Kirov's manufacture, chronicle of the events from Moscow ("Look from the undeground"), part of the Leningrad's myor Sobchak's speech, declaration of the Leningrad City Council, the text of the Union Treaty, an ad about a cockroach fighter... >From "Smena" Start of the quotation: Leningrad 22.20 Headlines: Four regiments in Sverdlov rejected order to move to Leningrad. Barricades are being built on Chapygin Street. Formations of Afganistan War veterans and of soldiers from Lithuenia moved to defend City Council. Militarty Commissar of the Kirov Borough said that this night troops will be in the city, Pskov Divison is already in Leningrad. Big House [I guess that is City Council, ZG] is surrounded. 19.00 Troops of tyhe special designation and paratroopers occupied TV station in Riga, Latvia. There are casualties. 21.00 The building of Latvian Foreign Ministry is surrounded, Riga Police force (militsia) is guarded (It is not clear whether police is guarding something or is guarded itself -- ZG) End of the quotation According to our data: 1) Troops of the Leningrad Garnison have an agreement with the City Commandant that they will not participate im ongoing events. 2) The building of the City Council is being actively fortified by barricades 3) Around 2AM Mayor Sobchak had a speech in front of defenders of the City Council. He said that that there is an agreement with most of the Leningrad's factories about today's demonstration and that it is supported by the Committee of the War Veterans. --------------------- End of the translation If anybody does not like quality of my English we may arrange to send my translations to him first, for editing. -- Zhenya Gorokhosvky| gorokho1@husc9.harvard.edu From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:09:08 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:08:52 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:27:12 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!unixland!sharon From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: The West missed an opportunity Message-Id: <1991Aug21.023105.651@unixland.natick.ma.us> Date: 21 Aug 91 02:31:05 GMT References: <1991Aug20.090921.4616@decuk.uvo.dec.com> Organization: The Think_Tank BBS & Public Access Unix (508) 655-3848 Lines: 77 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO dierick@ketje.enet.dec.com (Dominique Dierick) writes: >When I hear president Bush and prime minister Major demand the re-installation >of Gorbatchov I find it kind of hypocrite. >For years Gorbatchov has asked for financial support but he really got peanuts >from us. The German cancellor Kohl was the only one willing to support fully. >Now it is too late again. If we had given Gorbatchov our full support, hewould >have been more popular in the Soviet Union and the hard liners wouldn't have >found support for their coup. I cannot agree with this argument. Surely the West could not have realistically given massive aid to the Soviet Union in 1986 or 1987; there had to be a dependable history that Gorbachev was serious in his desire for better relations with the West and an end to the standoff between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. Even if massive aid had been pledged at the G7 conference this year -- or last year or the year before -- it is unlikely that it would have had made a significant improvement in the life of the average Soviet citizen. In fact, it is debatable whether it EVER would have had an effect, or would have just gone down a black hole of bureaucracy and corruption. I do not wish to be put in the position of supporting George Bush's policies toward the Soviet Union. I oppose many of them; I thought his speech to the Ukrainian parliament in Kiev was embarrassing. However, I hardly see how he and John Major are responsible for the situation in the Soviet Union now. The timing of the military takeover, 1 day before the signing of the new union treaty that would have severely limited the role of the Interior Ministry and KGB, suggests that the issue is not the economy at all, but those who were losing power trying to hold onto it by any means. >Let's be realistic. I have watched BBC last night and there are NO signs of >massive resistance. A couple of thousand people on the streets is not what is >going to stop the junta in power now. >The people in the SU, especially in major cities have lack of food and >essential >medical care, that's what they will remember most from the Gorbatchov time. >For most of them everything is better then Gorbatchov. If people don't have >to fight daily for survival they will have the time to be busy with politics. The issue now is no longer Gorbachev -- it is Yeltsin in Russia, the elected governments in the Baltics, etc. Gorbachev is now a symbol for the increased rights that were to be transferred to the republics. And Yeltsin is EXTREMELY popular -- more popular than John Major is in Britain, judging by his election results. He is also a symbol of whether or not the country will return to the old ways of the rulers of the past or continue trying to chart a new course. There are undoubtedly many reasons why there is not a massive outpouring of citizens in the streets in Moscow. Fear, no doubt, is one; the fact that some people really don't know what is going on, another. But there were massive demonstrations in Leningrad and Kishinev -- several hundred thousand people at each. And some people who led especially hard lives in the Soviet Union -- the miners -- have been quite active politically. So I cannot agree with your contention that if people didn't have to "fight daily for survival they will have the time to be busy with politics." I agree with you that there is very little we can do to influence matters in the Soviet Union now, other than economic penalties and very strong words. Public opinion has worked to some degree before; the bloodiest crackdown in Lithuania eased somewhat after the Western World raised its voice in protest. I agree with you, too, in the hopes that people do not get killed. This is a sad and frightening time. Sharon -- Sharon Machlis Gartenberg Framingham, MA USA email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us or uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:09:41 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:09:25 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:27:19 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!apollo!goykhman_a From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Stop posting the news reports, please. Message-Id: <1991Aug21.133459.5982@apollo.hp.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 13:34:59 GMT Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA Lines: 17 Originator: goykhman_a@ufo Nntp-Posting-Host: ufo.ch.apollo.hp.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I would like to respectfully ask the netters to refrain from posting up to the minute news reports here in this newsgroup. The recent surge in the net traffic makes it more difficult to monitor postings coming from the SU. Regards, Alex Goykhman -- Alex Goykhman Hewlett-Packard, Company (OSSD/CSSL) goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com mit-eddie!apollo!goykhman_a Standard disclaimer From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:10:13 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:09:57 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:27:42 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!veritas!oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: E-mail from Moscow, sent @ 12: 30 Moscow time today Message-Id: <1991Aug21.015249.5305@Veritas.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 01:52:49 GMT References: <1991Aug20.163611.8298@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu> Organization: VERITAS Software Lines: 14 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug20.163611.8298@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu> vadim@ldgo.columbia.edu (vadim levin) writes: >Situaciya neyasnaya-soprotivlenie okasivaet tol'ko Eltscin, >no eto zakonnaya vlast' ,chast' voisk-tanki i BTR ezdyat pod >flagom Rossii no konechno est' i drugie. "The situation is not clear -- only Yeltzin is expressing any resistance, but that's [he is] a legal power. Some troops -- tanks and armored vehicles are flying the Russian flag, but of course there are others as well." -- DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586 From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:10:46 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:10:29 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:28:06 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!att!linac!midway!kimbark!div3 From: div3@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Dwight Divine IV) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: CANCEL of REVOLT ARCHIVES Summary: Bare Bones storage available Keywords: archives, russian stuff, russian reports Message-Id: <1991Aug21.025227.20474@midway.uchicago.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 02:52:27 GMT References: <1991Aug20.002508.1736@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (NewsMistress) Organization: University of Chicago Lines: 33 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I can provide storage area for all the Russian posts. You can send Russian eyewitness accounts, transcripts of radio reports, Russian news shows, etc. to: archive@usite-next.uchicago.edu We can only hold about 35 MB of information :( so PLEASE, Russian reports only (I think these eyewitness accounts will be a vital thing to hang on to)! No translations! Of course, if one of the brave Russians posting these reports should post in English, that would be a worth addition... I will *try* to snatch these things from the newsgroup if I see them, but I probably won't... If someone wants to take on the duty of sending a copy of each Russian post, please do so, but be sure to inform the rest of us so that I don't get buried under multiple copies of the same information. On the other hand, don't feel that you shouldn't send something you're not sure someone else will be sending--I WILL go through and remove duplicates from the mail received (probably at least once a day). Each time I do so, I'll post a list of the Russian records currently held (or the changes since the last time I posted)...I *will* keep these posts down to once or twice a day to save bandwidth. This is the last post I will make until I begin to maintain the "archive". Note this will NOT be an ftp site--though I will mail out a complete, tarred file containing all the articles in the archive at request. Note also that I cannot maintain this archive for more than 5 or 6 days, though I may be able to pass on the flame, so to speak. Please respond via Email as far as possible to avoid posts to the group. Thanks, Dwight From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:11:20 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:11:03 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:28:59 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!stanford.edu!agate!forney.berkeley.edu!jbuck From: jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Talk to the general media? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.021437.21808@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 02:14:37 GMT References: <18914@venera.isi.edu> Sender: usenet@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator) Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 37 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <18914@venera.isi.edu>, lpress@isi.edu (Laurence I. Press) writes: |> Two people have posted messages regarding intention to speak about the |> net to the general media (radio, tv, papers). |> |> Is there not a danger that by telling the media that the Internet |> and Demos/Relcom exist we can get them busted? |> |> What do you think? Does the KGB know about the Net anyhow? |> Do we endanger the people and the connection by speaking in public? |> Do we help the cause by publicizing it? The media know about the net, and many reporters are on it. I know of several National Public Radio reporters who are on the net, as well as a number of newspaper columnists. Time magazine has a site on the net. Several newspapers get newsfeeds. The FBI gets a newsfeed from uunet. The net is not a small community of computer nerds anymore. It's possible that press reports about the role of the net might prompt some Soviet bureaucrat to cut the link, but there's no way we can keep talk.politics.soviet a secret from the American press: first off, they already know; secondly, there were a number of stories about the rule soc.culture.china was playing during the troubles at Tienanmen Square a couple years back: any reporter with a memory would expect the same thing. If the top brass in the KGB saw a CNN story about all the juicy stuff coming over the Internet link, they might be prompted to cut it off, but I can almost guarantee you that someone at CNN (or at least someone who knows someone) is reading this group. We'll just have to rely on their sense of responsibility (this probably means you shouldn't tell your local TV reporters: they are an incredibly dim-witted and irresponsible breed). -- Joe Buck jbuck@galileo.berkeley.edu {uunet,ucbvax}!galileo.berkeley.edu!jbuck From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:11:55 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:11:37 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:29:34 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!cs.uoregon.edu!milton!uw-beaver!apollo!goykhman_a From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Scared... Message-Id: <1991Aug21.020259.10339@apollo.hp.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 02:02:59 GMT Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA Lines: 91 Originator: goykhman_a@ufo Nntp-Posting-Host: ufo.ch.apollo.hp.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I can not recall when was the last time I was scared by the news as I am now. No, I am not particularily concerned about the coup: while its timing was a bit of a surprise, everything else was fairly predictable. What really scares me to death is the news that part of the Taman Guard Armored Division reportedly defected to Yeltsin, and is now defending the Russian Parlament. Why? Because Taman Guards are among the elite Soviet troops, people who are supposed to be especially loyal to the Central Command. If the Taman Guards can take sides and disobey orders, what can we expect from the regular Army detachements? Even a remote chance of a civil war in a country full of nukes should scare any thinking person to death. And yes, I know that the SU's strategic nuclear forces are under joint control and, therefore, are unlikely to be used against the US, at least at the moment. The main danger comes from the tens of thousands of tactical nukes controlled at the DIVISION level. Should a civil war erupt, both sides in the conflict will have tactical nukes at their disposal. Should they use the nukes, there will be no winners. This is the time when a strong leadership is particularly in demand. Unfortunately, the Bush/Baker "foreign" team does not inspire much confidence. Just look at their record: About year ago, the US Ambassador to Iraq, on the orders from the White House, stroke a conciliatory note during her meeting with Saddam Hussein. One week after, the Persian Gulf war began. About a month ago, Baker went to Yugoslavia and mumbled something about the (whose?) need preserve the Yugoslavian territorial integrity. Violence erupted almost immediately, and still goes on. Did Bush/Baker learn anything from the past experience? You be the judge: a couple of weeks ago Mr. Bush himself went to Moscow and, among other things, pimped for the Gorbachev's Union Treaty. Today we know that it was the upcoming signing of the treaty the prompted the coup. Apparently, the plotters felt that what was good for Amerika was not necessarily good for Russia. (Plus, don't you think the recent debate over the China's MFN send the hardliners a clear message?...) With the foreign "experts" like these, who needs a crystal ball? Regrettably, even the latest meddling in the Soviet internal affairs did not teach the policy makers to keep out. Mr. Bush branded the junta "illegitimate" (as if it were any less legitimate then the previous ones), and even went as far as discussing the current event with Yeltsin. This is pouring gasoline over fire, and here's why: Every Soviet citizen from the early childhood is taught that the Western intelligence services, as well as those who are behind them, would go to any length, and spare no money to subvert the Soviet system. So much, that the average Soviet citizen actually believes the story and is looking to the West, and US in particular, as their saviour. Mr. Bush's words can have the same effect on the Soviet population as they had on Kurds..., but with one important difference: the Soviets, even when abandoned by Bush, will have enough weaponry to keep the civil war going. Scared, -- Alex Goykhman Hewlett-Packard, Company (OSSD/CSSL) goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com mit-eddie!apollo!goykhman_a Standard disclaimer From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:12:29 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:12:11 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:29:41 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!ox.com!caen!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar!fuzzy!root From: root@fuzzy (Operator) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: TASS REPORT Message-Id: <19742@darkstar.ucsc.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:13:06 GMT References: <1991Aug21.133459.5982@apollo.hp.com> Sender: usenet@darkstar.ucsc.edu Reply-To: root@fuzzy (Operator) Organization: UC Santa Cruz; Division of Social Sciences Lines: 1 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Regulations of "former committee" are repealed From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:13:01 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:12:43 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:30:03 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!gustav From: gustav@arp.anu.edu.au (Zdzislaw Meglicki) Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Bye-bye Gorby. . . Message-Id: <1991Aug21.041446.26867@newshost.anu.edu.au> Date: 21 Aug 91 04:14:46 GMT References: <1991Aug19.171625.11587@crash.cts.com> <1991Aug20.143012.21289@odin.diku.dk> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: Australian National University, Canberra Lines: 14 Originator: gustav@diana.anu.edu.au Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug20.143012.21289@odin.diku.dk>, kimcm@diku.dk (Kim Christian Madsen) writes: |> However, I can't help having a nagging feeling that this coup might be |> masterminded by Gorby himself, in order to win popular support and be |> able to "win" his way back and purge the old hard-liners once and for |> all. That, I must say, has crossed my mind too. But, alas, this is exactly what the phrase "wishful thinking" means. -- Gustav Meglicki, gustav@arp.anu.edu.au, Automated Reasoning Project - CISR, and Plasma Theory Group - RSPhysS, The Australian National University, G.P.O. Box 4, Canberra, A.C.T., 2601, Australia, fax: (Australia)-6-249-0747, tel: (Australia)-6-249-0158 From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:15:16 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:15:00 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:31:58 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!ifi.uio.no!geirha From: geirha@ifi.uio.no (Geir Egil Hauge) Newsgroups: eunet.politics Subject: The demonstration: LINK FOR PEACE AND DEMOCRACY Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 14:37:06 GMT Sender: geirha@ifi.uio.no (Geir Egil Hauge) Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 77 Nntp-Posting-Host: holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no Originator: geirha@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO LINK FOR PEACE AND DEMOCRACY Version 1.1 This is a suggestion for an international demonstration for peace and democracy. It is initiated to support Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and the democatic forces in the Soviet. The demonstration is arranged as a link (rope/cord) of flowers, flags, and catchwords for peace and democracy. The link goes across the border of the worlds countries and into the Soviet. People are running a kind of relay race along the link, carrying flowers and letters with pray for peace and democracy in the Soviet and the rest of the world. The flowers and peace-letters are relay-race-carried to Moscow and other cities in the Soviet. Peacegroups are initiated at the Universities, and the electronic mail-system is used to get fast communication between main-peacegroups in different countries. There should be one main-peacegroup in each country, located at the largest University of the capital city. The peacegroups are named as PEACEGROUP OF , and should have a unique e-mail address. If possible, the e-mail-address should contain the name: peacelink. This is to make it easy to guess the address. The electronic mail-address for the PEACEGROUP OF NORWAY is peacelink@ifi.uio.no. Our peacegroup is located at the University of Oslo, Norway. To save time, the main-peacegroups of each country do only communicate with the main-peacegroups in border-countries. - Such countries as the UK may communicate with France accross the sea. Thus: An end of the link in the UK may send flowers and peace-letters over the English Channel to a start of the link in the France, and the PEACEGROUP OF BRITAIN communicate by electronic mail with the PEACEGROUP OF FRANCE to get this work. In Norway we seeks contact with the PEACEGROUP OF SWEDEN and the PEACEGROUP OF FINLAND. (One link may go from Norway to Sweden and over to Denmark. Another link may go through Finland to the Soviet, another link may go from Norway to Murmansk). Each main-peacegroup is responsible for distributing the work to different organizations in their countries. Organizations may be such as Peace- organizations, Christian organizations, Sports organizations, etc.. Each organization or subgroup of an organization gets the responsibility for a part of the link. They get people to make and join the link, and people to run the relay-race along the link. Each individual that take part in the work on the link is responsible for making say 20 or 30 metres of the link, and meet at a specific location and time to connect his/her link with the nearby part of the link. Thus the link grows across the borders of the different countries and into the Soviet. When the link has to go along or across the roads, one must remember to seek advice at the traffic police, to be sure not to disturb the traffic. The catchwords should not focus directely on Lithuania and such conflicts. This is because it may made things worse. The catchwords should say that military forces cannot be used against democrately elected politicians. It could be difficult to make such a long link. Pleace suggest solutions. Ideas could be sent to actual news-groups/bulletine boards, such as talk.politics.soviet, soc.culture.soviet, eunet.politics, bit.listserv.politics, etc.. If someone find that this text is unreadable due to bad english, then pleace correct the errors and change the version number just after the heading. Pleace take part in this demonstration, and spread this text to the other news-groups/bulletine boards. The last news could indicate that the coupmakers are weakened a little, but don't let the vultures breath. We must be ready to give the democratic forces in Soviet unlimited support. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:15:50 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:15:33 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:33:51 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!emory!att!bellcore!walter!gizmo.bellcore.com!mo From: mo@gizmo.bellcore.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Any chance people could just shut up and listen?? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.041807.14814@walter.bellcore.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 04:18:07 GMT Sender: news@walter.bellcore.com (All the News - Period) Reply-To: mo@gizmo.bellcore.com () Organization: Center for Chaotic Repeatabilty Lines: 11 Nntp-Posting-Host: gizmo Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO (munch) Frankly, folks, the people in Moscow don't give a crap about your opinions right now. How about stop wasting everyone's bandwidth and just listen to history unfolding?? I think that's making enough noise for everyone. -Mike O'Dell I speak for me. Bellcore's on its own. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:16:21 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:16:05 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:36:15 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!cc.tut.fi!kapa From: kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: coup seems to be over Message-Id: <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:11:53 GMT References: <1991Aug21.133103.16837@cc.tut.fi> Sender: news@cc.tut.fi (USENET News System) Distribution: talk.politics.soviet Organization: Tampere University of Technology Lines: 21 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO -- as reported by the Finnish TV 10 minutes ago (15.00 GMT) ---- The members of the committee that took the power are fleeing to either Kirgisia or Ukrania or the Crieman region. Boris Yeltsin has asked people to stop them. The speaker of thje Russian parliament will meet Gorbatchev later tonight in the Crimean. The armed forces are leaving Moscow. The apparent reason for the coup not to have succeeded seems to be the nonviolent but firm opposition of the civilans and the Russian parliament, with Boris Yeltsin at the center. The victims of last night have reinforced the opposition. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- kari kankaala, center for scientific computing, espoo, funland kankaala@csc.fi, kankaala@finfun, fax+358-31-16 26 20, +358-0-457 2239 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:16:54 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:16:37 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:36:28 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!mcsun!piet From: piet@NIC.EU.net (Piet Beertema) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup collapsing? Message-Id: <3626@mcsun.eu.net> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:15:34 GMT References: <1991Aug21.075306.10182@news.cs.indiana.edu> Organization: EurOpen Lines: 11 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Just received this mail: From: avg@hq.demos.su (Vadim Antonov) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 21 Aug 91 15:43:15 +0200 (MSD) .... I'm mortally tired... I haven't sleep more than for four hours in the days of coup. Now it's like the war is over. Vadim From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:17:25 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:17:08 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:36:41 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!jtsv16!gil From: gil@jts.com (Gil Hauer ) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Committee in Trouble? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.123050.700@jts.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 12:30:50 GMT References: <5260@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> Organization: Tech Noir Inc., Toronto, Canada Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <5260@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> gak@gakbox.Corp.Sun.COM writes: >According to NPR: > >Yazov has resigned. >Pavlov is "ill". > >Two down, six to go...is the Emergency Committee in trouble? Sounds like the "Russian Flu" :-) -- -- Gil Hauer gil@jtsv16.jts.com Tech Noir Inc. { torsqnt | suncan | geac | uunet }!jtsv16!gil Toronto, Ontario, CANADA +1 416 653 8276 From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:17:56 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:17:40 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:37:09 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!psinntp!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!att!bellcore!walter!gizmo!mo From: mo@gizmo.bellcore.com (Michael O'Dell) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Exposing details about connectivity Message-Id: <1991Aug21.040729.14706@walter.bellcore.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 04:07:29 GMT References: <18914@venera.isi.edu> Sender: news@walter.bellcore.com (All the News - Period) Reply-To: mo@bellcore.com (Michael O'Dell) Organization: Center for Chaotic Repeatabilty Lines: 22 Nntp-Posting-Host: gizmo Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Stupid, stupid people!!! It is one thing to distribute the information which gets out. It is a very different, extremely grave matter for it to be attributed. GET YOUR MIND IN GEAR!!! The issue here is not some bullshit about "THE NET" it is about people's LIVES!!! This is not some dream in cyberspace! Revealing methods and sources GETS PEOPLE KILLED. I just read in another note that CNN has already blabbed. I hope for the sake of the people involved on all fronts that noone loses life or freedom as a result of that piece. Yes, the people sending out the information know the risks. BUT THE BAD GUYS DON'T NEED ANY HELP!!! PLEASE DO NOT ENDANGER THE PEOPLE THERE ANY FURTHER. THIS IS NOT A TOPIC TO DISCUSS. THESE ARE REAL PEOPLE, NOT IDEAS. -Mike O'Dell Bellcore? I'm doing well enough to speak for myself. From cri.dk!news Thu Aug 22 23:18:29 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 23:18:12 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 02:37:20 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!yale!mintaka!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!dks From: dks@athena.mit.edu (Dhanesh K Samarasan) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Talk to the general media? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.023017.15213@athena.mit.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 02:30:17 GMT References: <18914@venera.isi.edu> <1991Aug21.021437.21808@agate.berkeley.edu> Sender: news@athena.mit.edu (News system) Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 25 Nntp-Posting-Host: e40-008-5.mit.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.021437.21808@agate.berkeley.edu> jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck) writes: >In article <18914@venera.isi.edu>, lpress@isi.edu (Laurence I. Press) writes: >|> Two people have posted messages regarding intention to speak about the >|> net to the general media (radio, tv, papers). >|> >|> Is there not a danger that by telling the media that the Internet >|> and Demos/Relcom exist we can get them busted? >If the top brass in the KGB saw a CNN story about all the juicy >stuff coming over the Internet link, they might be prompted to cut >it off, but I can almost guarantee you that someone at CNN (or at >least someone who knows someone) is reading this group. We'll >just have to rely on their sense of responsibility (this probably >means you shouldn't tell your local TV reporters: they are an >incredibly dim-witted and irresponsible breed). > >-- >Joe Buck >jbuck@galileo.berkeley.edu {uunet,ucbvax}!galileo.berkeley.edu!jbuck For what it's worth, I think Joe's right. What do others think? Dhanesh Samarasan dks@mit.edu