From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 06:54:48 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 06:54:31 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:40:04 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!gatech!purdue!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!biow From: biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Irresolute Coup? Message-Id: <38354@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 13:53:13 GMT References: <1991Aug20.100459.20092@newshost.anu.edu.au> Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742 (pronto) Lines: 32 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In response to Albert Langer's observation that the coup is, thus far, strangely absent of violence against Yel'tsin and the democrats: 1. Among the putsch planners, secrecy must have been of higher priority than perfect coordination. In past communist crackdowns, the people cracking down had no need for secrecy within the gov't. Thus we still see phone lines, INTERNET lines, etc. open. 2. No massive troop movements could be made in preparation. Thus, the only troops at hand in European USSR were European (Slavic) troops. The putsch planners must be aware of the "lessons learned" from the revolt in Buda[pest] in 1956. In that revolt, Slavic troops proved ineffective against the citizens' uprising. They tended to either defect, or to be too hesitant to shoot the civilians. The Soviets saw several divisions disappear into the city with little effect. 3. We already have confirmed reports of anywhere from a few platoons to several divisions defecting to Yel'tsin's standard. My guess is that the putsch leaders will not attempt to actually use force against the democrats until they can transport Asian troops into the Moscow area. You would then first see a withdrawal of the Slavic units, and then the entry of troops who speak only non-Indo-European languages. Without the ability to speak to the troops, the Muscovites will be unable to challenge their loyalty. If I am right, then it is essential for Yel'tsin to convince the troops who are in Moscow to stay put, and defend the city against any "foreign" troops. (Whether I actually want to see this happen is another matter. Civil wars in capital cities of nuclear superpowers make me nervous.) From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 06:56:31 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 06:56:13 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:41:25 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851 From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Nuclear Missiles Message-Id: <1991Aug20.142750.21509@newshost.anu.edu.au> Date: 20 Aug 91 14:27:50 GMT References: <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 8 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward) writes: >So what happens when some commanders with nuclear weapons join Yeltsin and >some stay with the committee? Nuclear weapons are of little use for international wars these days and of still less use in civil wars. From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 06:57:42 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 06:57:24 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:41:44 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sample.eng.ohio-state.edu!purdue!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!biow From: biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Nuclear Missiles Message-Id: <38356@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 14:26:46 GMT References: <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742 (pronto) Lines: 19 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward) writes: >So what happens when some commanders with nuclear weapons join Yeltsin and >some stay with the committee? All Soviet warheads, like most of ours, require digital codes (keys) for arming. According to today's Washington_Post, these keys are kept in "political," not military hands. I have heard assertions that this is a KGB function. Without the keys, the circuitry that detonates the conventional explosive in the warhead would have to be replaced from scratch. This would be a very difficult and time consuming task. Otherwise, the warheads would have to be broken open, and fissionable material from many warheads combined to make a more easily detonated (critical mass) weapon. It would seem that only the forces on the same side as the key-holders would be able to use the weapons in any militarily effective manner. From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 06:59:22 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 06:59:04 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:43:04 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!eagle!venus.lerc.nasa.gov!lvkelly From: lvkelly@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Kelly Carney) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: The coup, information, and coverage Message-Id: <20AUG199110493324@venus.lerc.nasa.gov> Date: 20 Aug 91 14:49:00 GMT References: <35056@hydra.gatech.EDU> Sender: news@eagle.lerc.nasa.gov Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center Lines: 29 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <35056@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt1111a@prism.gatech.EDU (Vincent Fox) writes... >There are a lot of things that really stick in my craw about this whole >thing. Number 1 would be that we could have possibly averted all this >by some shipments of wheat, some tractors, and some experts. But NOOOO... >Wouldn't be prudent, gotta wait for more reforms before we think about >helping the Soviets. Sure it would have cost billions, but considerably >less than all those new weapons our military will now want to buy. > Get Real. There is no way that the US could have averted with some wheat and some experts. This was a military coup performed because because they didn't want to lose power. There is nothing the United States could have done. I take by your coment on the military budget that you don't want us to be the world's policeman, but thinking that we can solve, or prevent, the world's problems is what causes this desire. > >I have also heard the usual criticism of CIA not warning us. Look folks >for years, the Bush and Reagan administrations valued fancy sat. photos >over human agents. This hasn't changed THAT much since Iraq. And lest >people forget, we DID have intel. on Iraq, but the admin. chose to >disbelieve it for reasons that have yet to be sorted out. Could the same >thing have happened again? What the hell would we have done anyway? Called up Gorby and said "better watch your ass tomorrow"? I really think the leaders of the coup probably tried not to let anyone know the date in advance. They probably didn't even tell Gorby. Get Real. Anyone who was surprised by the coup has had their head in the sand. From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 06:59:56 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 06:59:40 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:43:24 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851 From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup Order-of-Battle Message-Id: <1991Aug20.144325.21638@newshost.anu.edu.au> Date: 20 Aug 91 14:43:25 GMT References: <21244@rsiatl.Dixie.Com> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 32 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <21244@rsiatl.Dixie.Com> pjohn@Dixie.Com (Peter C. Johnson) writes: >Is anybody tracking Coup order-of-battle? The Tienanmien incident >newsposts had a lot of info; I wonder if anybody is watching this. > >I mention it because it looks like military units are mutinying. The dozen or so tanks defending Yeltsin are certainly evidence that some military units are remaining loyal to their oaths in defence of the Soviet Constitution and rejecting the illegal overthrow of their Commander in Chief, the Soviet President (or "mutinying" as you put it :-) There may well be many others. But be careful of relying on journalistic speculation like the "Tien an men incident newsposts". As I recall western journalists were breathlessly interpreting the direction that tank gun barrels were pointing and the arm bands worn by different troops as signs that some troops were rebelling against the Teng Hsiao-ping regime, simply because they WISHED that were so. In fact the one certainty about armed forces splitting is that they will announce their allegiances clearly by flying appropriate flags. The first priority of each side MUST be to proclaim as loudly and clearly as possible "we are the authorities, rally to us". There will be no ambiguity about the position of any military units that DO change sides (as indeed there is no ambiguity about the position of the tanks defending Yeltsin). What is more interesting, and difficult to analyse, is not the "order of battle" on either side, but the units that remain passive due to "unreliability". From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:01:07 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:00:49 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:44:03 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851 From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Irresolute Coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug20.151108.21838@newshost.anu.edu.au> Date: 20 Aug 91 15:11:08 GMT References: <1991Aug20.100459.20092@newshost.anu.edu.au> <38354@mimsy.umd.edu> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 50 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <38354@mimsy.umd.edu> biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow) writes: >In response to Albert Langer's observation that the coup is, thus far, >strangely absent of violence against Yel'tsin and the democrats: > >1. Among the putsch planners, secrecy must have been of higher priority >than perfect coordination. In past communist crackdowns, the people >cracking down had no need for secrecy within the gov't. Thus we still >see phone lines, INTERNET lines, etc. open. But Yeltsin and company should be as high a priority as Radio and TV stations. This is not a matter of imperfect coordination but deliberate omission. (BTW, I prefer to use the terminology adopted by demonstrators against the coup in the Soviet Union, who refer to the coup as "fascist" rather than "communist"). >2. No massive troop movements could be made in preparation. [...] Whatever troops are available, the highest priority must be to suppress the center of opposition. >3. We already have confirmed reports of anywhere from a few platoons >to several divisions defecting to Yel'tsin's standard. My guess is that >the putsch leaders will not attempt to actually use force against the >democrats until they can transport Asian troops into the Moscow area. >You would then first see a withdrawal of the Slavic units, and then >the entry of troops who speak only non-Indo-European languages. >Without the ability to speak to the troops, the Muscovites will be unable >to challenge their loyalty. Perhaps that may explain the delay in larger scale repression, but lack of reliable troops would make it all the MORE urgent to capture the opposition HQ. >If I am right, then it is essential for Yel'tsin to convince the >troops who are in Moscow to stay put, and defend the city against >any "foreign" troops. (Whether I actually want to see this happen >is another matter. Civil wars in capital cities of nuclear superpowers >make me nervous.) Any troops under Yeltsin's command should, along with the civilian population, be arresting supporters of the coup in Moscow or, if they are unable to do so, then they should be withdrawing to some territory where they ARE able to exert their own authority. Competing authorities can regroup at least temporarily in different parts of the same country but they can only coexist in the same city in odd situations like the "dual power" period in 1917 where the Soviets had NOT yet resolved on taking "all power" to themselves. Something strange is going on. From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:01:43 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:01:25 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:44:11 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!diku!kimcm From: kimcm@diku.dk (Kim Christian Madsen) Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Bye-bye Gorby. . . Message-Id: <1991Aug20.143012.21289@odin.diku.dk> Date: 20 Aug 91 14:30:12 GMT References: <1991Aug19.171625.11587@crash.cts.com> Sender: kimcm@rimfaxe.diku.dk Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen Lines: 57 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO lyled@pnet01.cts.com (Lyle Davis) writes: > Just opened up the morning paper and saw the headlines. . ."Gorbachev >Overthrown!!" > It appears, however, that Gorbachev was much more popular here in >American than in Russia. I had doubts whether he could survive but hoped he >would. > What is the feeling in the Scandinavian countries? You're closer than >we are. Had the Scandinavians generally supported Gorby? Do they feel a >sense of loss now that he is gone? It certainly seems like Gorby is much more popular in the west than at home, however I hope that the people of USSR will dare to defy the regime installed by the coup d'etat, realizing that as the british PM John Major said "...There is constitutional ways of removing the Soviet president..." and if some kind of change in the head of the Soviet state is needed -- a coup is not the right way of solving things. However, I can't help having a nagging feeling that this coup might be masterminded by Gorby himself, in order to win popular support and be able to "win" his way back and purge the old hard-liners once and for all. This might sound far-fetched but look at the following "facts": Gorby put a lot of prestige into getting the VP Yanajev elected -- A gray and dull man who was always following orders. The coup d'etat was carried out on a monday, former KGB people tells the standard KGB way of making coups are to place them at fridays, where people are out of the way and they have the weekend to consolidate themselves in power. The coup-makers aren't making decissive moves, actually it seems like they have no plan at all. Why state health reasons "high-blood-pressure & back-ache" as reasons for Gorby's resignation, why not "cardiac arrest" or even "lead poisoning" or something equally deadly to get him out of the way for good! Why is Boris Yeltsin still on the loose, he is far more dangerous to the hard-liners, since he has a broad popular support base in the Russian people and even in the Red Army, Interior Forces, KGB, etc. The actions of the coup-makers are as though they didn't even think the coup was going to be a success.... Well, it might be wishful thinking, but it would be a marvelous stunt, and stranger things have been seen in the "Soviet Power Enigma". Regards, Kim Chr. Madsen From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:02:22 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:01:59 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:44:31 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!silver!boylanr From: boylanr@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (ross boylan) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Troop loyalty crucial Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 15:14:20 GMT Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Indiana University Lines: 20 Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I want to underline something an earlier poster said: those behind the coup may simply be waiting to bring in troops from outside the region, troops of a different ethnic background from most Muscovites, or `special' troops with strong ideological loyalty to the conservatives behind the coup. This was the pattern in China, and also in the military crackdown in Poland in the early 80's. The democratic forces need to act quickly to convert the troops in the cities to the democratic cause. In most revolutions, the loyalty of the troops is crucial. (I am a sociologist and make this observation based on the sociology of revolutions.) Even where people power has been effective recently, the troops must at least be unwilling to use force against the protesters. The timidity of the conservatives, and interviews with some of the troops in Moscow, suggests that the troops currently in Moscow can not be counted on to do the bidding of the new regime. Very encouraging. My best wishes, and hopes, are with the people of the Soviet Union. From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:02:56 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:02:37 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:45:08 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!demos!news-server From: avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su (Vadim Antonov) Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 14:45:27 GMT Sender: news-server@kremvax.hq.demos.su Reply-To: avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su Organization: DEMOS, Moscow, USSR Lines: 29 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO "nEWSKOE WREMQ" oBRA]ENIE WICE-M\RA lENINGRADA KONTR-ADMIRALA wQ^ESLAWA nIKOLAEWI^A }ERBAKOWA K LENINGRADCAM I WOINAM lENINGRADSKOGO WOENNOGO OKRUGA. dOROGIE LENINGRADCY! q, PREVDE WSEGO, HO^U SDELATX OFICI- ALXNOE ZAQWLENIE PO POWODU MOEGO, QKOBY, U^ASTIQ W TAK NAZYWA- EMOM KOMITETE SPASENIQ lENINGRADA. sEGODNQ UTROM Q NAHODILSQ DOSTATO^NO DALEKO OT lENINGRADA I S BOLX[IM BESPOKOJSTWOM UZ- NAL O TOM KAK RAZWIWA@TSQ SOBYTIQ, PREVDE WSEGO, W mOSKWE, A W POSLEDU@]EM I W lENINGRADE, I STAL ISKATX SPOSOB KAK MOVNO BYSTREE DOBRATXSQ S@DA, W lENINGRAD. nO Q E]E BOLX[E STAL PE- REVIWATX, KOGDA USLY[AL SWO@ FAMILI@ W ^ISLE TEH ^ETYREH ^LE- NOW KOMITETA SPASENIQ, KOTORYJ, QKOBY, SFORMIROWAN W lENINING- RADE. |TO Q WOSPRINQL, KAK OSKORBLENIE. i SEJ^AS MENQ E]E DA- WIT OSKORBLENNOE ^UWSTWO OFICERA, OFICERA FLOTA, OFICERA, KO- TORYJ OTDAL FLOTU BOLEE ^EM TRIDCATX LET. q OFICIALXNO ZAQWLQ@, ^TO NI W KAKOM KOMITETE SPASENIQ Q NE SOBIRALSQ RABOTATX I NIKOGDA RABOTATX NE BUDU! q QWLQ@SX DEPU- TATOM 328 OKRUGA, MENQ IZBRALI LENINGRADCY, PRIMORCY, Q QWLQ- @SX WICE-M\ROM, KOTOROGO TAKVE IZBRALI LENINGRADCY 12 I@NQ. wOT DWE MOI DOLVNOSTI, KOTORYE Q BUDU ^ESTNO ISPOLQTX, KAK ISPOLNQL RANX[E. q HOTEL BY OBRATITXSQ KAK OFICER FLOTA, KAK KONTR-ADMIRAL K WOINAM lENINGRADSKOGO GARNIZONA. dOROGIE WOINY! bUDXTE, POVALUJSTA, W \TI TQVELYE DNI BLAGO- RAZUMNY! kOMU TO O^ENX I O^ENX HO^ETSQ STOLKNUTX NAS W PLAMQ STRA[NOJ, BRATOUBIJSTWENNOJ GRAVDANSKOJ WOJNY. nE DOPUSTITE \TOGO, POVALUJSTA! nE DOPUSTITE \TOGO, DOROGIE WOINY! From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:03:33 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:03:16 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:45:21 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!demos!news-server From: avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su (Vadim Antonov) Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 14:51:05 GMT Sender: news-server@kremvax.hq.demos.su Reply-To: avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su Organization: DEMOS, Moscow, USSR Lines: 81 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO a.a.sOB^AK iZ WYSTUPLENIQ NA ^REZWY^AJNOJ SESSII lENSOWETA "pREDATX SUDU TEH, KTO WSTAL NA PUTI SWOBODY" u^ASTNIKI TAK NAZYWAEMOGO "gOSUDARSTWENNOGO KOMITETA PO ^REZWY^AJNOMU POLOVENI@" NESUT LI^NU@ OTWETSTWENNOSTX ZA POLOVENIE W STRANE, ONI SDELALI \TOT PUT^ NE SLU^AJNO NAKANUNE PODPISANIQ sO@ZNOGO DOGOWORA, POTOMU ^TO PODPISANIE SO@ZNOGO DOGOWORA STAWILO TO^KU W ISTORII sOWETSKOGO sO@ZA, OZNA^ALO PREKRA]ENIE sOWETSKOGO sO@ZA KAK OSOBOGO GOSUDARSTWA, SOZDANNOGO W 1922 GODU. oZNA^ALO PROCESS SOZDANIQ PRINCIPIALXNO NOWOJ GOSUDARSTWENNOSTI, PRINCIPIALXNO INYH SOOTNO[ENIJ MEVDU ROLX@ RESPUBLIK I CENTRA W \TOM GOSUDARSTWE. oZNA^ALO, ^TO CENTR STANOWITSQ WTORI^NYM OBRAZOWANIEM, A WSE EGO POLNOMO^IQ LI[X DELEGIROWANNYMI POLNOMO^IQMI RESPUBLIK. iMENNO \TO I NE USTRAIWALO ZAGOWOR]IKOW, IMENNO PO\TOMU ZAGOWOR]IKI PRINQLI RE[ENIE NE DOPUSTITX PODPISANIE sO@ZNOGO dOGOWORA. pODPISANIE \TOGO dOGOWORA OZNA^AET, ^TO NET BOLX[E NIKAKIH PREPQTSTWIJ DLQ KAVDOJ RESPUBLIKI SAMOJ OPREDELQTX SWO@ SUDXBU, BYTX LI DALX[E W SO@ZE sUWERENNYH gOSUDARSTW W KA^ESTWE NEZAWISIMOGO I SUWERENNOGO GOSUDARSTWA, LIBO NE WHODITX W \TOT SO@Z. iMENNO PO\TOMU, POWTORQ@, ZAGOWOR]IKI SDELALI WSE, ^TOBY NE DOPUSTITX PODPISANIQ \TOGO DOGOWORA. nESKOLXKO SLOW O NA[IH DALXNEJ[IH DEJSTWIQH. sEGODNQ WSE ZAKONNO IZBRANNYE ORGANY WLASTI NA TERRITORII NA[EJ STRANY DOLVNY SOBRATXSQ DLQ TOGO, ^TOBY DATX OCENKU DEJSTWIQM ZAGOWOR]IKOW, DEJSTWIQM PROTIWOZAKONNYM. zAKON O ^REZWY^AJNOM POLOVENII, KOTORYJ MY PRINIMALI W wERHOWNOM sOWETE, W SOZDANII KOTOROGO Q PRINIMAL LI^NOE U^ASTIE, SODERVAT IS^ERPYWA@]IJ PERE^ENX SLU^AEW, KOGDA MOVET BYTX WWEDENO ^REZWY^AJNOE POLOVENIE. tOLXKO wERHOWNYM sOWETOM ILI pREZIDENTOM. |TI SLU^AI IZWESTNY: STIHIJNOE BEDSTWIE, \PIDEMIQ, \PIZOOTIQ, I NAKONEC, MASSOWYE BESPORQDKI. nO NIKAKIH MASSOWYH BESPORQDKOW W lENINGRADE NE BYLO! tAKVE KAK NE BYLO I ZEMLETRQSENIJ, I \PIDEMIJ. pO\TOMU RASPORQVENIE qNAEWA I \TOJ KOMISSII O WWEDENII W lENINGRADE ^REZWY^AJNOGO POLOVENIQ NE IMEET POD SOBOJ NIKAKOGO ZAKONNOGO OSNOWANIQ. |TO RE[ENIE PROTIWOZAKONNO I MESTNYMI ORGANAMI WLASTI WYPOLNQTSQ NE DOLVNO. wSE NARODNYE DEPUTATY rOSSII I WSE NARODNYE DEPUTATY sssr DOLVNY POLNOSTX@ SOBRATXSQ, ^TOBY OBSUDITX I PRINQTX RE[ENIE O NEMEDLENNOM SOZYWE ^REZWY^AJNOGO S_EZDA sO@ZA ssr I ^REZWY^AJNOGO S_EZDA rOSSIJSKOJ fEDERACII. nELXZQ DATX WOZMOVNOSTI ZAGOWOR]IKAM PRODOLVATX SWOE ANTIKONSTITUCIONNU@, PROTIWONARODNU@, PROTIWOZAKONNU@ DEQTELXNOSTX. kOGDA Q NAZWAL WSEH U^ASTNIKOW, OB_QWIW[IH O SOZDANII TAK NAZYWAEMOGO "gOSUDARSTWENNOGO KOMITETA PO ^REZWY^AJNOMU POLOVENI@" "BYW[IMI" MINISTRAMI, "BYW[IM" PREMXER-MINISTROM, Q NE OGOWORILSQ. oNI SAMI LI[ILI SEBQ SWOEGO GOSUDARSTWENNOGO POLOVENIQ, NARU[IW ZAKON, NARU[IW KONSTITUCI@. nEOBHODIMO NEMEDLENNO SOZWATX W mOSKWE ILI W L@BOM DRUGOM GORODE sOWETSKOGO sO@ZA, ESLI SOZYW \TOGO SXEZDA W mOSKWE STANET NEWOZMOVNYM, ~REZWY^AJNYJ S_EZD NARODNYH DEPUTATOW sssr I ~REZWY^AJNYJ S_EZD NARODNYH DEPUTATOW rOSSII DLQ TOGO, ^TOBY PRINQTX NEOBHODIMYE RE[ENIQ I PRIWLE^X K OTWETSTWENNOSTI WSEH, KTO PYTAETSQ E]E RAZ W NA[EJ ISTORII WSTATX NA PUTI STREMLENIQ NARODA K SWOBODE, K TOMU, ^TOBY VITX S^ASTLIWO, NEZAWISIMO, SAMIM OPREDELQTX SWO@ SUDXBU. sOWMESTNO S RUKOWODSTWOM OBLASTNOGO sOWETA PRINQTO RE[ENIE O NEOBHODIMOSTI PRODOLVITX ~REZWY^AJNU@ SESSI@ lENINGRADSKOGO sOWETA SOWMESTNO S ~REZWY^AJNOJ SESSIEJ lENINGRADSKOGO OBLASTNOGO sOWETA W POME]ENII tAWRI^ESKOGO DWORCA. zAWTRA \TA OB_EDINENNAQ SESSIQ NA^INAET RABOTATX W 10 ^ASOW UTRA. zDESX DOROG KAVDYJ ^AS, I, WOZMOVNO, DEPUTATY OBSUDQT I PRIMUT RE[ENIQ SOBRATXSQ RANX[E. i, NAKONEC, POSLEDNEE. q PROSIL BY DEPUTATOW gORODSKOGO sOWETA PRINQTX RE[ENIE I OPREDELITX SWO@ POZICI@ PO OBRA]ENI@ rOSSIJSKOGO RUKOWODSTWA OB OB_QWLENII WSEOB]EJ ZABASTOWKI, KROME TEH PREDPRIQTIJ I ORGANIZACIJ, KOTORYE OBESPE^IWA@T VIZNEDEQTELXNOSTX GORODA. s^ITA@, ^TO SLEDUET PRODOLVATX \TU ZABASTOWKU DO TEH POR, POKA ZAGOWOR]IKI LIBO PO RE[ENI@ S_EZDA NARODNYH DEPUTATOW, LIBO PO WOLE NARODA NE BUDUT OTSTRANENY OT NEZAKONNO ZAHWA^ENNOJ WLASTI I NE BUDUT PEREDANY SUDU. oTNOSITELXNO WKL@^ENIQ `RIQ fEDOROWI^A qROWA W SOSTAW \TOJ TAK NAZYWAEMOJ ^REZWY^AJNOJ KOMISSII. mY LETELI S `RIEM fEDOROWI^EM W SAMOLETE, MY BYLI WMESTE I NA ZASEDANII PREZIDIUMA wERHOWNOGO sOWETA rOSSII, I ON, TAKVE KAK I Q, WPERWYE UZNAL O TOM, ^TO EGO WKL@^ILI W SOSTAW \TOJ KOMISSII. oN NIKOMU PODOBNOGO SOGLASIQ NE DAWAL I W RABOTE \TOJ KOMISSII PRINIMATX U^ASTIE NE SOBIRAETSQ. eGO POZICIQ NI^EM NE OTLI^AETSQ OT POZICII TOLXKO ^TO WYSKAZANNOJ W \TOM WYSTUPLENII. pO\TOMU Q PRO[U OTNOSITXSQ K PODOBNYM DEJSTWIQM ZAGOWOR]IKOW KAK K DEJSWIQM PROWOKACIONNYM. nEWSKOE WREMQ, N 98 wTORNIK 20 AWGUSTA 1991 GODA From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:04:08 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:03:49 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:45:26 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!demos!news-server From: avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su (Vadim Antonov) Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 14:55:00 GMT Sender: news-server@kremvax.hq.demos.su Reply-To: avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su Organization: DEMOS, Moscow, USSR Lines: 44 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Subject: w lENINGRADE WY[EL NOMER MOLODEVNOJ GAZETY rOSSII "sMENA" 4:00 UTRA, 20 AWGUSTA nESMOTRQ NA ZAPRET OBKOMA kpss, PRI SODEJSTWII LENINGRADSKOGO oMONA, WY[LI O^EREDNOJ NOMER OB]ESTWENNO-POLITI^ESKOJ MOLODEVNOJ GAZETY rOSSII "sMENA" I OB]ESTWENNO-POLITI^ESKOJ NEZAWISIMOJ GAZETY "nEWSKOE wREMQ". w GAZETAH OPUBLIKOWANY uKAZY pREZIDENTA rOSSII, oBRA]ENIQ K GRAVDANAM rOSSII, PROTEST RABO^IH kIROWSKOGO ZAWODA, HRONIKA SOBYTIJ IZ mOSKWY ("wZGLQD IZ PODPOLXQ"), WYDERVKA IZ WYSTUPLENIQ M\RA lENINGRADA sOB^AKA, oBRA]ENIE lENSOWETA, TEKST sO@ZNOGO dOGOWORA, REKLAMA SREDSTWA UNI^TOVENIQ BYTOWYH NASEKOMYH... wYDERVKA IZ "sMENY": "kogda werstalsq nomer lENINGRAD. 22.20 ~ETYRE sERTOLOWSKIH POLKA OTKAZALISX IDTI NA lENINGRAD. nA ULICE ~APYGINA STROQT BARRIKADY. k lENSOWETU PRIBYLO FORMIROWANIE AFGANCEW (KLUB WOINOW-AFGANCEW mOSKOWSKOGO RAJONA) I LITOWSKOE FORMIROWANIE. wOENKOM kIROWSKOGO RAJONA PEREDAL, ^TO W \TU NO^X W GOROD DOLVNY WOJTI WOJSKA. pSKOWSKAQ DIWIZIQ UVE W lENINGRADE. oKRUVEN bOLX[OJ DOM. 19.00. wOJSKAMI omon I DESANTNIKOW W rIGE ZAHWA^ENO ZDANIE TELECENTRA. eSTX UBITYE. 21.00. oKRUVENO ZDANIE midA, WZQTO POD OHRANU RIVSKAQ MILICIQ. sO STORONY |STONII K rIGE IDET 15 BRONETRANSPORTEROW." (KONEC CITATY). pO NA[IM DANNYM: 1. wOJSKA LENINGRADSKOGO GARNIZONA PO DOSTIGNUTOJ DOGOWORENNOSTI S KOMENDANTOM GORODA sAMSONOWYM NAHODQTSQ W KAZARMAH I NE SOBIRA@TSQ PRINIMATX U^ASTIQ W SOBYTIQH. 2. aKTIWNO IDET STROITELXSTWO BARRIKAD WOKRUG ZDANIQ lENSOWETA. 3. w NA^ALE WTOROGO NO^I sOB^AK WYSTUPAL PERED SOBRAW[IMISQ NA iSAAKIEWSKOJ PLO]ADI ZA]ITNIKAMI lENSOWETA. oN OTMETIL, ^TO IMEETSQ DOGOWORENNOSTX S BOLX[INSTWOM LENINGRADSKIH PREDPRIQTIJ OTNOSITELXNO SEGODNQ[NEJ DEMONSTRACII I TO, ^TO ONA PODDERVANA lENINGRADSKIM kOMITETOM wETERANOW. From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:04:43 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:04:26 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:45:38 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!demos!news-server From: avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su (Vadim Antonov) Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Yazov Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 15:00:08 GMT Sender: news-server@kremvax.hq.demos.su Reply-To: avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su Organization: DEMOS, Moscow, USSR Lines: 19 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO From: chech@kaija.spb.su (Igor E. Chechik) Organization: Independent Affiliate "KAIJA", Leningrad, USSR Date: Tue, 20 Aug 91 16:23:23 +0300 (MSD) Return-Receipt-To: chech@post.kaija.spb.su Subject: qZOW u NAS PO RADIO PEREDALI ^TO qZOW OTKAZALSQ OT U^ASTIQ W kOMITETE -- ZAQWIL ^TO ON NI^EGO NE ZNAET I NIKOGDA W NEGO NE WHODIL kROME TOGO PEREDALI ^TO mI[A PEREWEZEN W mOSKWU NA BOMBARDIROW]IKE wSE \TO IDET SO SSYLKOJ NA |ho moskwy zARABOTALA LI \TA RADIOSTANCIQ ? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Igor E. Chechik -- postmaster of St. Peterburg (Leningrad), USSR home: (7 812) 227 1551 work: (7 812) 294 1103 From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:07:31 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:07:13 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:46:29 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!ucla-cs!ucla-se!mott!marn From: marn@mott.seas.ucla.edu (Jure Marn) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Ouster of Gorbachev Message-Id: <3658@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> Date: 20 Aug 91 15:31:10 GMT References: <1991Aug19.104631.3671@unixland.natick.ma.us> Sender: news@SEAS.UCLA.EDU Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO >In article <1991Aug19.104631.3671@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes: > >>Another question: who are these troops manning the tanks rolling into >>Moscow? Are they Interior Ministry troops or the regular army? And if they >>are regular army, are they Russians or specially selected other nationalities? CNN showed some footage of local population conversing with soldiers (something like 'We are your mothers, we brought you up, go back...') I thought it was in Russian, but could be mistaken. -- Jure Marn ------------------------------------------------------------------------ marn@wright.seas.ucla.edu ! kdor visoko leta ... Thank you for flowers, flames and fun ! ... ima dober razgled From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:08:39 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:08:23 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:46:47 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!bywater!arnor!news From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Ouster of Gorbachev Message-Id: <1991Aug20.132842.12891@watson.ibm.com> Date: 20 Aug 91 13:28:42 GMT Sender: news@watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster) Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Lines: 21 Nntp-Posting-Host: oleg Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In <1991Aug19.151524.171@watson.ibm.com> oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes: > In <1991Aug19.104631.3671@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes: > > ... > > A major question now, of course, is what will happen to Boris Yeltsin. > > ... > > Major questions should be what will happen to the peace on our dearest > planet, the unfortunate break-away republics, Eastern Europe, all the > good peoples of the SU, and even you and me... .. > Oleg Vishnepolsky Boris Yeltsin's fate is indeed a major question. I was overly pessimistic yesterday and did not take into account possibility that the coup is not a done deal yet. If it was, Yeltsin's fate would be a lot less important. There is a lot of indications to the contrary. Experts seem to be all bullish on Yeltsin, and on the coup's failure. Some give the coup 3 months to failure, some 3 days. Oleg Vishnepolsky From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:09:47 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:09:31 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:46:59 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!bywater!arnor!news From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: what else? Message-Id: <1991Aug20.144007.15910@watson.ibm.com> Date: 20 Aug 91 14:40:07 GMT Sender: news@watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster) Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Lines: 26 Nntp-Posting-Host: oleg Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In <1991Aug20.012106.18615@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.MMS@forsythe.stanford.edu (Mark Skubik) writes: > Well.... > > I guess that the Moscow Spring is over. Perhaps in the next few > days we shall be seeing Soviet tanks crushing the bodies of the > people. As I have said before on this net, the Status quo soviets > will hold on to power until the last thread of civilized behavior is > broken. These guys are old enough to remember the deaths of > millions upon millions in the building of their wonderful utopia. > Why should anyone be surprised that this cornered old beast > is striking out to defend itself? > ... There is hope this time that the coup does not have guts to spill the Russian blood. If they do, they all will be signing their death penalties. And this gray croud of Stalists seems to be very cautious and unsure of themselves. Kasparov said yesterday that the coup is very useful in the sense of destroying last credibility the hardliners had in eyes of the people. And when these clowns are gone, a new democratic Russia may emerge. An MVD general was reported yesterday pledging to Yeltsin not to spill Russian blood. All in all, the coup is losing its momentum and time. The more time passes with Yeltsin still in the running, the more likely that the coup will fail within a few days. Oleg From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:12:04 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:11:47 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:47:33 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!dcs.ed.ac.uk!hans From: hans@cs.ed.ac.uk (Hans Huttel) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Exit Gorbachev - what now ?? Message-Id: <16311@gruinard.dcs.ed.ac.uk> Date: 19 Aug 91 14:02:19 GMT Sender: nnews@dcs.ed.ac.uk Reply-To: hans@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Hans Huttel) Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U Lines: 24 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I woke up this morning to the alarming news that Gorbachev had been ousted in a coup and replaced by the vice president whose name I cannot spell. Oh no... Mikhail Sergevich certainly wasn't perfect but the guys that seem to be in control now are a million times worse. His `resignation due to poor health' is a blast from the past and sounds especially bizarre given that Gorbachev is not exactly a Chernenko. Now I hear that Shevardnadze and Yakovlev call for support for Yeltsin. What can/should the opposition do now ? And how about the outside world ? (Maybe we should actually make enquiries about his health and ask to have foreign deputations visit him in hospital or whereever he is supposed to be - that could certainly expose that silly lie.) Have the KGB/military types who instigated the coup got widespread support at all ? -- Hans H\"{u}ttel, Office 1603 JANET: hans@uk.ac.ed.dcs Lab. for Foundations of Comp. Sci. UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!dcs!hans JCMB, University of Edinburgh ARPA: hans%dcs.ed.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk Edinburgh EH9 3JZ, SCOTLAND This is _not_ a clever quote from a song. From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:12:45 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:12:26 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:48:37 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!demos!news-server From: avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su (Vadim Antonov) Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet Subject: 13 Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 15:36:18 GMT Sender: news-server@kremvax.hq.demos.su Reply-To: avg@jumbo.hq.demos.su Organization: DEMOS, Moscow, USSR Lines: 28 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO sWIDETELXSTWO O^EWIDCA nA iSAAKIEWSKOJ PLO]ADI PERED ZDANIEM mARIINSKOGO DWORCA PRODOLVAETSQ MITING. pLO]ADX NAPOLOWINU ZAPOLNENA L@DXMI. u KRYLXCA STOIT FURGON tw (IDET TRANSLQCIQ IZ lENSOWETA?). nA KRYLXCE NESKOLXKO rOSSIJSKIH FLAGOW, SBOKU - ^ELOWEK S ^ERNYM FLAGOM. tOLPA SOSTOIT IZ OBY^NYH L@DEJ, MNOGO VEN]IN, PENSIONE- ROW, NA PLO]ADKE KRYLXCA IGRA@T MALENXKIE DETI. oSNOWNYE LOZUNGI - "dOLOJ gkp~ - kpss", "fA[IZM NE PROJDET","rOSSIQ, PODNIMAJSQ S KOLEN". oTDELXNYE KU^KI L@DEJ GRUPPIRU@TSQ WOKRUG TEH, KTO PRINES S SOBOJ RADIOPRIEMNIKI. oSNOWNAQ ^ASTX L@DEJ SLU[AET ORATOROW. nASTROENIE - BEZUSLOWNAQ PODDERVKA eLXCINA, lENSOWETA, sOB^AKA. l@DI DOWOLXNO SPOKOJNY I RE[ITELXNY. bARRIKAD NET. nABEREVNAQ mOJKI PEREGOROVENA POWALENNYMI STROITELXNYMI WAGON^IKAMI. nA NIH NADPISI - "mY NE RABY", "sWOBODU!" nA SREDNIH WOLNAH RABOTAET "rADIO bALTIKI". rABOTAET NESKOLXKO SWOBODNYH RADIOSTANCIJ W L@BITELXSKOM DIAPAZONE KOROTKIH WOLN. mILICII NEMNOGO. omonA NE WIDNO. mOLODYE L@DI PREDLAGA- @T POMO]X W ZA]ITE lENSOWETA. sOOB]AETSQ , ^TO PO NEKOTORYM [OSSE (W T.^. PO kIEWSO- MU) DWIVUTSQ W NAPRAWLENII lENINGRADA WOJSKOWYE ^ASTI. wSEH, KTO IMEET INFORMACI@ O PEREDWIVENII WOJSK PROSQT ZWONITX W [TAB lENSOWETA: 310-00-00 319-98-57 From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:13:20 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:13:00 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:48:43 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!demos!jvdrd!relcom!news-server From: moroz@inzer.demos.su (Oleg Moroz) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Meeting near Mossovet Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 13:43:47 GMT Sender: news-server@relcom Reply-To: moroz@inzer.demos.su Organization: Steepler Ltd. Lines: 21 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Hello from Moscow ! I'm just from meeting which was in front of Mossovet (Moscow Soviet) house. Moscow mayor Gavriil Popov claimed that the yesterday events are anti-constitutional and anti-democratic putsch and that all the people who made it are outlaws. His former vice- Sergei Stankevitch welcomed a group of 150 men who gathered there as official radio station said (really there were about some thousand people) and said he came from 'Russian White House' (Russian Parliament building) and had a speech there too at the multi-thousand-people meeting. Cuzbass (Cuznetsk coal basin) miners' representative (don't know his name) said that miners are with Moscow and Yeltsin. Almost all Russian oblasts (regions) are pro-Yeltsin (and pro-Gorbachev ...) except Bryanskaya and some other oblast. That's all for now. OM -- Oleg Moroz Internet: moroz@inzer.demos.su Software engineer phone: +007 (095) 245-2194 Moscow, USSR +007 (095) 214-8192 From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:14:29 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:14:12 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:49:26 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!own From: own@castle.ed.ac.uk (O Morgan) Newsgroups: eunet.politics Subject: Re: Coup in the Soviet Union Message-Id: <12437@castle.ed.ac.uk> Date: 20 Aug 91 11:14:35 GMT References: <1991Aug19.150828.14923@ida.liu.se> Distribution: eunet Organization: Scottish Agricultural College Lines: 35 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug19.150828.14923@ida.liu.se> uda@ida.liu.se (Ulf Dahlen) writes: >The coup in the Soviet Union is really shocking! Did anyone of you >expect this now? And the way it happened? Yes I agree it's shocking, but it might have positive effects. IMHO something had to happen in the USSR, because it would (will) be cataclismic if the country is allowed to slide in the economic morass as was happening under Gorbachev. I don't have exact figures, but you hear of economic contractions of 10% in 6 months, the food distribution structures to the towns having brocken down, etc... , and the president doing nothing other than trying to consolidate his (slipping) grip on power. I hope that the people and the army will resist this coup, and that a counter-coup will let the democratically elected leaders carry on with their tasks. (the democratic leadership in no sense includes Gorby, who was never elected, and is widely hated in the USSR.) I think it is a shame that the West can only see Gorbachev when they think of the Soviet political scene. He is due a lot of credit for his role in presiding over perestroika, glasnost and the end of the cold war. But he should have left a long time ago, when it became clear that he was no match for the economic situation that confronted him. History may show that it is at least as important for a government to provide food as it is to allow freedom. If this coup has only one positive effect, it will be the fact that we are moving into the post-Gorbachev era. Olly Morgan -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Olly Morgan @ Scottish Agricultural College, Edinburgh EH9 3JG, Scotland Tel: (+44 31) 667 1041 E.Mail: O.Morgan@ed.ac.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:15:02 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:14:45 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:50:18 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ncar!midway!quads!rjh1 From: rjh1@quads.uchicago.edu (robert j hinde) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet Subject: any news on USSR lesbian/gay/bisexual activists? Keywords: gay, lesbian, bisexual, USSR, Soviet Message-Id: <1991Aug20.154752.29421@midway.uchicago.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 15:47:52 GMT Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (NewsMistress) Organization: University of Chicago -- Dept. of Chemistry Lines: 44 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Hello there, soc.culture.soviet and talk.politics.soviet readers. I wonder if anyone who can read this message has any news on how the recent Soviet coup has affected the nascent lesbian/ gay/bisexual liberation movement in the Soviet Union. Just two or three weeks ago, approximately 20,000 people marched through the streets of Moscow demanding equal rights for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. This was one of the first gay rights marches ever held in the USSR. Several journalists from gay and lesbian newspapers in the US were at the march. One of the central goals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual activists in the Soviet Union is to abolish Article 121.1 of the Soviet penal code, which makes sexual activity between two men punishable by five years in a labor camp. This article has been used not only to punish sexually- active gay men, but also to intimidate and oppress political dissidents. I imagine that the Emergency Committee will not look kindly on political activity aimed at repealing this law. The gay and lesbian movement in the Baltic republics was also fairly strong by Eastern European standards. In May 1990, two Estonian historians organized the Soviet Union's first international conference on homosexuality and the gay movement. This meeting attracted 150 researchers and activists from East and West Europe, the US, and the USSR. Presumably the Emergency Committee's crackdown on the Baltic republics can have only negative effects on the gay and lesbian movement there. If anyone can provide me with some information, I can pass it on to gay and lesbian newspapers in the US. I can be contacted... by electronic mail: RJH1@midway.uchicago.edu by fax: 312-702-0805 by surface mail: Robert Hinde 5437 S. Harper #2 Chicago, IL 60615-5523 USA From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:15:41 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:15:24 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:50:35 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!midway!kimbark!div3 From: div3@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Dwight Divine IV) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: COMMUNISM Summary: When Communism can work Keywords: Goal, Community, Orientation, Communism Message-Id: <1991Aug20.151940.28322@midway.uchicago.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 15:19:40 GMT References: <9108150847.AA09102@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu> Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (NewsMistress) Organization: University of Chicago Lines: 58 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Please excuse any rough edges, this is my first post to this group. I am not including the previous articles (which discussed working models of communism, including Shaker communities and certain family units), because my post does not deal directly with their statements but, rather, with the underlying reasons why communism succeeds in certain communities. NOTE: communism of X, in this article, will be defined as the practice of sharing X among all members of the community or group (in Marx's words "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" I am not a social scientist, or an historian, so these are just speculations (as opposed to speculations backed by a PhD and much research :) )... It seems to me that communism succeeds exactly where the participants, both individually and as a group, care far more about a particular GOAL and about each other than they do about personal possession of the commodities to be shared. For example: o A communism of goods (material objects) could exist in a monastary [monks are united by a common goal of religious life and denial of material comforts, and by common membership in a brotherhood] or a research lab (with respect to the computing facilities--so long as everyone thought they were getting sufficient access to the facilities) [researchers are united by a common goal of solving certain problems, and by common membership in the research group]. o A communism of results, honors, or credits would NOT likely exist in the research group above (that is, it is likely the researchers would demand individual credit to any who had contributed) because the goal of the group is to produce results. Other examples of groups which practice (largely) communism of groups are: the military (where personal possessions may be restricted to what the troops can carry on their backs or in their vehicles) [again, a common goal and unity, and again, a place where communism of honors would be unlikely to succeed], groups having little or no material wealth (such as the Bushmen of the Kalahari) [where survival demands communism or where there just aren't any goods valuable enough to spur discord], or among family members, or (in a *limited* sense) among the very rich, who may not mind sharing or giving away very valuable commodities with friends and acquaintences. In each case, I think, we can see that communism succeeds where the participants either don't really care about the things being shared, care more about the other participants than about the things, must share to survive, or care more about some set of ethics or common goal than about the things shared. This may help to explain why communism fails among large groups (like countries). Such groups are likely to be *very* heterogeneous with respect to goals, feelings towards other members, and feelings about the goods or items to be shared. This will generally cause the system to break down (since you will have the classic problems of free riders, cheaters, and thieves). Of course this is all just speculation, but I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say. Dwight Divine IV The man with no .sig... From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:19:06 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:18:48 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:55:48 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!agate!bionet!ig!vax1.umkc.edu!CDELL From: CDELL@VAX1.UMKC.EDU ("VALENTINE M. SMITH") Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Soviet Bulletin #26 Message-Id: <57CE2AFE40A01013@vax1.umkc.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 14:21:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 11 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Current info indicates massive demonstrations in Leningrad and Moscow despite the ban, and it's reported 400,000 people were demonstrating against the new regime in Moldava. Sobchak is reported still in charge in Leningrad, Yeltsin was giving a speech a little while ago outside the Russian "White House." The chairman of the Supreme Soviet claims Gorbachev is still in the Crimea, but Interfax claims Gorb was brought to the Kremlin under guard, rumored to be later meeting with members of the coup. President Bush is to have a press conference on the events in the SU in the next ten minutes. The Lithuanian Parliament is or has been meeting in emergency session, tanks have rolled into Tallinn. The EC announced the freezing of $1.5 billion in aid. That's what I know at 0900 CDT. VMS From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:22:26 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:22:08 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:58:15 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!sun4!jwm From: sun4!jwm (James W. Meritt) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: close neighbor Message-Id: <1991Aug20.165616.6371@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 16:56:16 GMT References: <3152@kielo.uta.fi> Sender: news@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <3152@kielo.uta.fi> tijoma@uta.fi (Jorma M{ntyl{) writes: }Finland offers an excellent place to monitor broadcasts from the USSR as }we are their closest neighbour. Perhaps you mean to Moscow? There are other countries with borders on the Soviet Union. Even the US of A is only 3 miles from the Soviet Union... But Finland does make an excellent listening site, with a straight shot across the water ("Whiskey on the Rocks". hehehehe) Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily represent those opinions of this or any other organization. The facts, however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone. jwm@sun4.jhuapl.edu or jwm@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu or meritt%aplvm.BITNET From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:23:04 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:22:46 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:58:48 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!convex!rdavis From: rdavis@convex.com (Ray Davis) Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.culture.soviet,alt.activism,talk.politics.soviet,soc.rights.human Subject: some mail Summary: Soviet Coup: some mail Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 91 16:55:45 GMT Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 506 Nntp-Posting-Host: connie.convex.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Below are four pieces of mail I received last night (either directly or indirectly) from Moscow. I'm forwarding it on in support of their cause. Whether necessary or not, I've deleted the from lines and names for their safety as well as to help reduce the amount of unnecessary traffic through their mail link to the west. Unless things have changed in the last year, there is only one link to/from the Soviet Union. It is only a modem connection over conventional phone lines. It can easily become a bottle neck, and too much traffic into the Soviet Union means it will be slower for them to use their internal network to spread their own news and information. Ray - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Date: Tue, 20 Aug 91 02:06:51 +0300 (MSD) Subject: Re: Soviet Coup: translation of today's statement from Yeltsyn Thank you, Ray! I hope you posted this text to t.p.s. Our net turned to be a mean of communication of the forces of resistance. I really proud of it but it's really dangerous... Still, I hope to see you again ;-) Cheers, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Date: Tue, 20 Aug 91 00:17:31 +0300 (MSD) Subject: Re: Info for Soviet Trip Hi! Don't worry, we're OK, though frightened and angry. Moscow is full of tanks and military machines, I hate them. They try to close all mass media, they shuted up CNN an hour ago, soviet TV transmites opera and old movies. But, thanks Heaven, they don't consider RELCOM mass media or they simply forgot about it. Now we transmit the information enough to put us in prison for the rest of our life :-) Hope, all will turn out well at long last... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - This is from someone lucky enough not to still be in Moscow... Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 18:18:04 EDT Subject: Hello, this day Hello. Glad to hear you - though day is not so good. [...] And you know last week in Moscow when i explained my girl (she and parents and a lot of friends are there...very bad) reasons to leave that country I said "if here something happened and I'm here I should take part in fight - no choice to be out of fight being here" ANd I didn't believe yet something of that kind can happen - just reserved mathematical possibility. Very bad. Last ten moths there were repetitions of that coup, which stopped on early stages - and we thought soviet union is after that danger. But... But i hope that these committee haven't real power - because else there would be war - i think there are peoples and forces in russia who would never agree to live under Commy's again. Very unpredictable. Can be another Tienanman. And friends there. mail - my last from Moscow was from yesterday - and nothing today. Bye, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To: eunet@mcsun.eu.net Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 21:20:13 O Subject: Yeltsin's decree E U N E T C O N F I D E N T I A L =================================== Please redistribute as wide as possible the followin in stripped Russian and an approximate translation to English. It'll ber fine, if this reachs world information agencies. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ukaz PREZIDENTA rOSSIJSKOJ fEDERATIWNOJ sOUIALISTI^ESKOJ RESPUBLIKI pREDPRINQTA POPYTKA GOSUDARSTWENNOGO PEREWOROTA, OTSRANEN OT DOLVNOSTI pREZIDENT sssr, QWLQ@]IJSQ wERHOWNYM gLAWNOKOMANDU@]IM wOORUVENNYH sIL sssr. wICE-PREZIDENT sssr, pREMXER-MINISTR sssr, PREDSEDATELX kgb sssr, mINISTRY oBORONY I wNUTRENNIH DEL sssr WO[LI W ANTIKONSTITUCIONNYJ ORGAN, SOWER[IW TEM SAMYM GOSUDARSTWENNOE PRESTUPLENIE. w REZULXTATE \TIH DEJSTWIJ DEQTELXNOSTX ZAKONNOIZBRANNOJ ISPOLNITELXNOJ WLASTI sO@ZA ssr OKAZALASX PARALIZOWANNOJ. w SLOVIW[EJSQ ^EREZWY^AJNOJ SITUACII POSTANOWLQ@: 1. dO SOZYWA WNEO^EREDNOGO s_EZDA NARODNYH DEPUTATOW sssr WSE ORGANY ISPOLNITELXNOJ WLASTI sO@ZA ssr, WKL@^AQ kgb sssr, mwd sssr, mINISTERSTWO OBORONY sssr, DEJSTWU@]IE NA TERRITORII sssr, PEREHODQT W NEPOSREDSTWENNOE POD^INENIE IZBRANNOGO NARODOM pREZIDENTA rsfsr. 2. kOMITETU GOSUDARSTWENNOJ BEZOPASNOSTI rsfsr, mINISTERSTWU WNUTRENNIH DEL rsfsr, gOSUDARSTWENNOMU KOMITETU rsfsr PO OBORONNYM WOPROSAM WREMENNO OSU]ESTWLQTX FUNKCII SOOTWETSTWC@]IH ORGANOW sO@ZA ssr NA TERRITORII rsfsr. wSE TERRITORIALXNYE I INYE ORGANY mwd, kgb I mINISTERSTWO OBORONY NA TERRITORII rsfsr OBQZANY NEMEDLENNO ISPOLNQTX UKAZY I RASPORQVENIQ pREZIDENTA rsfsr, sOWETA MINISTROW rsfsr, PRIKAZY kgb rsfsr, mwd rsfsr, gOSUDARSTWENNOGO KOMITETA rsfsr PO OBORONNYM WOPROSAM. 3. wSEM ORGANAM, DOLVNOSTNYM LICAM, GRAVDANAM rsfsr PRINQTX NEZAMED- LITELXNYE MERY K TOMU, ^TOBY ISKL@^ITX WYPOLNENIE L@BYH RE[ENIJ I RASPORQVENIJ ANTIKONSTITUCIONNOGO kOMITETA PO ^EREZWY^AJNOMU POLOVENI@. dOLVNOSTNYE LICA, WYPOLNQ@]IE RE[ENIQ UKAZANNOGO KOMITETA, OTSTRANQ@TSQ OT ISPOLNENIQ SWOIH OBQZANNOSTEJ W SOOTWETSTWIE S KONSTI- TUCIEJ rsfsr. oRGANAM pROKURATURY rsfsr NEMEDLENNO PRINIMATX MERY DLQ PRIWLE^ENIQ UKAZANNYH LIC K UGOLOWNOJ OTWETSTWENNOSTI. pREZIDENT rsfsr b.eLXCIN mOSKWA, kREMLX 19 AWGUSTA 1991 GODA N 61 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DECREE of the President of the Russian Federative Socialist Republic An attempt of a coup d'etat was taken, the President of the USSR, who is the Commander-in-Chief of the Soviet Army, was dismissed from his post. The Vice President of the USSR, the Prime Minister of the USSR, the Chairman of the Committee on the State Security (KGB) of the USSR, Ministers of Defence and Internal Affairs of the USSR formed an unconstitutional body, therefore commiting a state crime. As a result of this action the activity of constitutional executive power of the USSR was paralised. In this situation I decree: 1. Until the emergency Congress of the People's Deputies of the USSR is taken all bodies of the executive power of the USSR, including the KGB, Internal Ministry, Ministry of Defence, acting on the territory of the RSFSR, are taken under the submission of the President of the RSFSR, elected by the people. 2. The KGB of the RSFSR, Internal Ministry of the RSFSR, State Committee of the RSFSR on Defence Problems are prescribed to temporary execute the functions of the corresponding bodies of the USSR on the territory of the RSFSR. All the territory and other bodies of the Internal Ministry, KGB and Defence Ministry on the territory of the RSFSR immediately have to obide decrees and orders of the President of the RSFSR, the Consil of Ministers of the RSFSR, the orders of the KGB of the RSFSR, the Internal Ministry of the RSFSR, the State COmmettee of the RSFSR on Defence Problems. 3. All executive bodies, persons and citizens of the RSFSR have to take immediate actions to prevent the execution of any decrees and orders of the unconstitutional Commettee on Emergency Situation. Executive persons, obiding orders of this commettee, are dismissed from their posts in accordance with the Constitution of the RSFSR. Bodies of the Procurature of the USSR have to immediately take actions to enforce the criminal law onto this persons. The President of the RSFSR B.Yeltsin Moscow, Kremlin August 19, 1991 # 61 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 15:18:00 O Subject: coup d'etat E U N E T C O N F I D E N T I A L =================================== Please redistribute as wide as possible. Thank you. Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 13:16:37 +0200 (MSD) INTERFAX NEWS AGENCY EXPRESS AUGUST l9, l99l 12:30 LEADERSHIP OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION APPEALS TO CITIZENS USSR INTERIOR MINISTRY RESTORES VERTICAL LAW-ENFORCEMENT STRUCTURES YELTSYN FAILED TO CONTACT GORBACHEV AT THE OFFICE OF THE MOSCOW MILITARY COMMANDANT COMMANDER OF LENINGRAD MILITARY DISTRICT APPEARS ON TV * * * LEADERSHIP OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION APPEALS TO CITIZENS The President of Russia Boris Yeltsyn, the acting chairman of the Russian Supreme Soviet Ruslan Khasbulatov and Prime-Minister Ivan Silayev have declared that the legitimate President of the USSR was dismissed on the night of August l8, l990. In an appeal to the citizens of Russia this is described as "a right-wing, reactionary, anti-constitutional coup". They note that there were attempts of an overthrow before. Yeltsyn, Silayev and Khasbulatov said that the use of force in governing the country is unacceptable. "This discredits the USSR in the face of the whole world, undermines our prestige in the international community and returns us to the cold war epoch and the isolation of the Soviet Union from the world community," the appeal says. The three leaders declared "the so-called committee that came to power" as well as all its decisions illegal. They expressed assurance that local government bodies will strictly observe the constitutional laws and decrees of the president of the Russian Federation. They called for giving President Gorbachev a chance to address the nation as well as immediately convening an extraordinary Congress of USSR People's Deputies. "We call for a general strike without a time limit till these demands are fulfilled", the document says. USSR INTERIOR MINISTRY RESTORES VERTICAL LAW-ENFORCEMENT STRUCTURES In reply to a question from IF's reporter about steps taken by the USSR Interior Ministry following the decisions of the political leadership of the country on the introduction of a state of emergency in a number of regions, the head of the ministry's public relations center Andrei Chernenko said that at the moment the ministry is concentrating its attention on the state of public order. At a working conference Interior Minister Pugo emphasised the necessity of strengthening the defence of the civic interests of the population irrespective of the place of their residence, nationality and social standing. The restoration of the vertical structure of law- enforcement bodies was described as the necessary measure for the implementation of this program. Appropriate information is submitted to the regional Interior Ministries. NOTE On August l9 IF will be issuing urgent newsletters instead of regular bulletins. YELTSYN FAILED TO CONTACT GORBACHEV Speaking at a Moscow news conference on Monday the Russian President Boris Yeltsyn declared that the Ukraine and some other republics which he managed to contact share the opinion of the Russian leadership about the developments in the country. According to Yeltsyn, he failed to contact Gorbachev. All means of communication, the Russian President declared, are controlled by "the putschists". He also said that in response to Order Number One announced on radio today the Russian President is going to issue a decree on disobedience to the order. The Russian government, Yeltsyn said, will continue its work. The news conference was also attended by Prime-Minister Ivan Silayev and Vice-President Alexander Rutskoi. AT THE OFFICE OF THE MOSCOW MILITARY COMMANDANT IF's reporter was informed by the office of the Moscow military commandant that no orders have been received on changing its functioning order. It was also said that today such an order is not expected. COMMANDER OF LENINGRAD MILITARY DISTRICT APPEARS ON TV At l0:00 a.m. the commander of the Leningrad military district Colonel-General Victor Samsonov appeared on local radio and television. He said that the he has been appointed the commandant of Leningrad and the surrounding area by the State committee for the state of emergency. He announced that since 4 a.m. on August l9 a state of energency and curfew were introduced in the region. Strikes, rallies, demonstrations and processions are banned. The activities of political parties hindering the normalization of the situation and sabotaging the decisions of the committee will be banned. Samsonov said that strict control over the media is introduced, some of them might even be closed. Besides, no one will not be allowed to quit jobs of one's own free will. He also said that the staffs of the organizations that will be closed under orders from the commandant will be forcefully employed "at factories, plants and farms". According to Samsonov, the committee for the state of emergency for the Leningrad region will include the leader of the regional committee of the CPSU Boris Gidaspov, the vice- mayor of Leningrad Vyacheslav Shcherbakov, the chairman of the Leningrad regional council Yuri Yarov and be presided by Samsonov himself. The Mayor of Leningrad Anatoli Sobchak is absent from the city. According to unconfirmed reports, a full-scale meeting of the Central Committee of the CPSU is due today on August l9. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX BALTFAX August 19, 1991, 12:50 FOR SUBSCRIBERS' ATTENTION: Today IF will release express news only. IN TALLINN THE SPECIAL DEFENCE COUNCIL HELD A SESSION. ESTONIAN AUTHORITIES REAFFIRM THEIR POLICY OF RESTORING INDEPENDENCE BY PEACEFUL MEANS Estonia's interim defence council held a session in Tallinn on Monday. The session was chaired by the head of Estonia's parliament Arnold Ruutel. The council urged the population, local government bodies as well as state and public structures to display calm and fortitude. It adopted a statement, pointing out that Estonia's democratically elected government and state structures reaffirm their policy of restoring Estonia's independence by peaceful means. There are reports that Estonia's prime minister Edgar Savisaar who is on a visit in Sweden is returning to Estonia. Estonia's foreign minister Lennart Meri is on a visit in Finland. So far he has no intention of returning home. According to BF's correspondent, last January Meri received special instructions to form a government in exile. Vladimir Vinogradov, secretary of the coordinating council of the Estonian intermovement told BF that his movement supports the USSR leaders' appeal to the Soviet people. "All this is happening in the interests of the working people", V.Vinogradov stressed. VYTAUTAS LANDSBERGIS ON THE LATEST DEVELOPMENTS IN THE USSR Speaking on local radio Monday morning, the head of Lithuania's parliament Vytautas Landsbergis declared that the people of Lithuania "will not collaborate with the puppet authorities should such be installed in their republic". "Martial law might be imposed in Lithuania on Monday", he said. "If military commandants impose their power, try to avoid casualties", V.Landsbergis pointed out. Lithuania's President Vytautas Landsbergis urged the people to gather in front of the parliament building. The presidium of Lithuania's parliament is convening for an urgent session. MPs are recalled from their vacations. BF's correspondent reports from Vilnius that independent Lithuanian TV which made its telecasts from Kaunas following the invasion of the TV center in Vilnius by the military on January 13 this year has stopped functioning. According to BF's correspondent, the relay station in Fitkunauc has been seized. A small private radio station continues its broadcasts. -- INTERFAX 250-92-55, 250-92-57 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 13:42:46 +0200 (MSD) INTERFAX NEWS AGENCY EXSPRESS AUGUST l9, l99l 13:30 - JOINT STATEMENT OF ARMENIAN PARLIAMENT AND CABINET PRESIDIUMS - GROUP FOR STATE OF EMERGENCY SET UP IN KAMCHATKA * * * JOINT STATEMENT OF ARMENIAN PARLIAMENT AND CABINET PRESIDIUMS The Presidiums of the parliament and government of Armenia have issued a joint statement saying that "at this tense and critical hour for the whole country Armenians should demonstrate the staunchness and restraint inherent in them, manifest labor discipline and not give in to provocations". The statement stresses that the presidiums are constantly following the developments in the country's leadership and will react accordingly. GROUP FOR STATE OF EMERGENCY SET UP IN KAMCHATKA On August l9 a session of the Kamchatka regional executive committee attended by the heads of its key departments, members of the presidium of the regional council, and media representatives formed a group for the state of emergency. The aim of the group will be to respond to the developments in the region, work out and approve possible decisions. The group is led by the vice-chairman of the regional council Albert Usov. -- INTERFAX 250-92-55, 250-92-57 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 15:02:50 +0200 (MSD) INTERFAX NEWS AGENCY INTERFAX NEWS August 19, 1991, 14:50 THE UKRAINE TOOK A STAND SIMILAR TO THAT OF THE RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP, SAID BORIS YELTSIN Russia's President Boris Yeltsin has told newsmen that the Russian leadership succeeded neither in broadcasting nor in telecasting its appeal. Areas in Russia are receiving the appeal over telephone. Yeltsin called upon the leaders of all countries to condemn the coup. According to Russia's President, the chairman of the Ukrainian parliament Leonid Kravchuk told him that the presidium of the Ukrainian parliament took a stand similar to that of the Russian leadership. It decided not to submit to the orders issued by the State-of-Emergency Committee (SEC). The acting chairman of Russia's parliament Ruslan Khasbulatov told newsmen that the presidium of Russia's parliament held an urgent conference and decided to convene the parliament for an emergency session on Wednesday to discuss the political situation in the Russian Federation. The representatives of constituent republics and autonomous regions authorized to sign union treaty are now in Moscow, said R.Khasbulatov. The building of Russia's parliament has been surrounded by tanks, said Russia's prime minister Ivan Silayev. Answering newsmen's questions Boris Yeltsin said that today he was prevented from entering the Kremlin where he was going to meet with G.Yanayev. Later Yeltsin managed to get in touch with Yanayev who told him that Gorbachev could no longer perform the functions of president. His attempts to get in touch with Gorbachev ended in failure, said B.Yeltsin. "If Gorbachev is alive and still there (at the presidential villa in the Crimea), he is blocked", said Russia's President. He spoke with Gorbachev for the last time last Friday, said Yeltsin. According to him, "on Friday Gorbachev was safe and sound", and intended to hold an important conference on August 21. YELTSIN ISSUED A DECREE DENYING RECOGNITION TO THE STATE-OF- EMERGENCY COMMITTEE Russia's President Boris Yeltsin signed a decree which proclaims the State-of-Emergency Committee as unconstitutional and qualifies its actions as treason. The decree proclaims all orders issued by the SEC as illegal and null and void in the territory of Russia. The lawful authorities in the territory of Russia continue to function, said Yeltsin. "The activity of persons who comply with the orders of the SEC will be qualified in accordance with the criminal code of the Russian Federation and subjected to legal proceedings", the decree says. The decree came into force as soon as it was signed. THE LEADERS OF THE STATE-OF-EMERGENCY COMMITTEE WILL GIVE A NEWS CONFERENCE Members of the State-of-Emergency Committee G.Yanayev, V.Pavlov and O.Baklanov will give a news conference at the press center of the USSR foreign ministry at 17:00 today. MOVEMENT FOR DEMOCRATIC REFORMS GIVES A PRESS CONFERENCE The Movement for Democratic Reforms gives a press conference at 15:00 today at the building of the Soviet Foreign Policy Association, 10, Elizarova St. It will release a statement. Telephone numbers for contacts: 975-21-67, 297-78-35, 299-15-12. -- INTERFAX 250-92-55, 250-92-57 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:25:06 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:24:48 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 03:00:01 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sample.eng.ohio-state.edu!purdue!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!biow From: biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Putsch or coup? Message-Id: <38372@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 16:51:06 GMT References: <12593@ncar.ucar.edu> Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742 (pronto) Lines: 38 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <12593@ncar.ucar.edu> strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes: > I think "coup" is more appropriate, since those who are trying to overthrow > the government are within the government. A "putsch" is an overthrow from > *outside* the government, a la Hitler's failed Beer Hall Putsch. >From Webster's: Putsch [in italics] (pooch), n. German. a revolt or uprising, esp. one that depends upon suddenness and speed. Thus, putsch does not necc. mean an unsuccessful revolt in a beer hall. Either word applies, but I'm going to continue to use "putsch," "junta," and, at Albert's suggestion, "fascist" to identify the perpetrators of this action. These words have more propaganda value, especially in the Soviet Union, whose people carry a reflexive hatred of all things Nazi. Normally I don't go in for euphemistic propaganda, but here I'll use it shamelessly. And the hard liners of the CPSU have progressed to the point where the political extremes become identical. What I am most concerned is that, assuming the junta succeed in taking control, neither the Soviet people nor the world forget just how evil these people are. Remember that Lenin and Stalin were admired by many in the West, who found all manner of excuses for their evil. There are approx. 150,000 citizens of Moscow who appear ready to lay down their lives in a "futile" effort to stop the putsch. It is up to us to preserve the memory of what happens. Though we may have to deal with the facists' government, just as we had to deal with Stalin, Brezhnev, Andropov, and Mao, we must remember that we are dealing with truly evil men. Chris "Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may give you a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him, quickly and without hate." Robt. Heinlein From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:24:32 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:24:15 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 02:59:13 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!sun4!jwm From: sun4!jwm (James W. Meritt) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Nuclear Missiles Message-Id: <1991Aug20.170240.6642@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 17:02:40 GMT References: <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> <38356@mimsy.umd.edu> Sender: news@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory Lines: 21 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk In article <38356@mimsy.umd.edu> biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow) writes: }In article <1991Aug20.130514.12427@vlsi.waterloo.edu> ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward) writes: }>So what happens when some commanders with nuclear weapons join Yeltsin and }>some stay with the committee? } }All Soviet warheads, like most of ours, require digital codes (keys) }for arming. According to today's Washington_Post, these keys are kept }in "political," not military hands. I have heard assertions that this }is a KGB function. Excuse me for not feeling a lot better. The missles are already targetted, and not aimed at the USSR. And, as of today, the "political" and "military" hands are the same hands. Two of the top three in the "committee" are KGB and Military minister. And since we have seen how they view solutions to problems.... Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily represent those opinions of this or any other organization. The facts, however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone. jwm@sun4.jhuapl.edu or jwm@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu or meritt%aplvm.BITNET From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:26:51 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:26:33 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 03:02:51 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!bywater!arnor!news From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) Newsgroups: rec.games.chess,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Report of an imminent attack on Yeltsin Message-Id: <1991Aug20.171856.21176@watson.ibm.com> Date: 20 Aug 91 17:18:56 GMT Sender: news@watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster) Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Lines: 5 Nntp-Posting-Host: oleg Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I heard on CNN that KGB is concentrating forces near the parliament building for the attack on forces loyal to President Yeltsin. The attack is expected to be anytime tonight. Oleg Vihnepolsky From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 07:28:19 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:27:58 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 03:03:09 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!MIT.EDU!dks From: dks@MIT.EDU (Dhanesh K. Samarasan) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: More bandwidth: Use with discretion, please Message-Id: <9108201740.AA00395@MIT.EDU> Date: 20 Aug 91 20:36:33 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Lines: 73 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO This may be pushing it, but if people are really interested in expressing solidarity, here is a list of known USSR bulletin boards. I don't really have the compiler's permission to distribute the list, so please use with discretion: NO COMMERCIAL USE, etc. Regards, Dhanesh ------- PS: BBC: One hundred Red Army tanks approaching Yeltsin's HQ as I write. Known USSR Bulletin Board Systems Version ### of ####### Compilation (C) 1991 ####### ########## BBS name ! Data phone ! Modem ! FIDO addr -----------------------------!----------------!----------!------------ PsychodeliQ Hacker Club BBS +7-351-237-3700 2400 2:5010/2 Kaunas #7 BBS +7-012-720-0274 ? - Villa Metamorph BBS +7-012-720-0228 ? - WolfBox +7-012-773-0134 1200 2:49/10 Spark System Designs +7-057-233-9344 1200 2:489/1 Post Square BBS +7-044-417-5700 2400 - Ozz Land +7-017-277-8327 2400 - Alan BBS +7-095-532-2943 2400/MNP 2:5020/11 Angel Station BBS +7-095-939-5977 2400 2:5020/10 Bargain +7-095-383-9171 2400 2:5020/7 Bowhill +7-095-939-0274 2400/MNP 2:5020/9 JV Dialogue 1st +7-095-329-2192 2400/MNP 2:5020/6 Kremlin +7-095-205-3554 2400 2:480/100 Moscow Fair +7-095-366-5209 9600/MNP 2:5020/0 Nightmare +7-095-128-4661 2400/MNP 2:5020/1 MoSTNet 2nd +7-095-193-4761 2400/MNP 2:5020/4 Wild Moon +7-095-366-5175 9600/MNP 2:5020/2 Hall of Guild +7-383-235-4457 2400/MNP 2:5000/0 The Court of Crimson King +7-383-235-6722 2400/MNP 2:50/0 Sine Lex BBS +7-383-235-4811 19200/PEP 2:5000/30 The Communication Tube +7-812-315-1158 2400/MNP 2:50/200 KREIT BBS +7-812-164-5396 2400 2:50/201 Petersburg's Future +7-812-310-4864 2400 - Eesti #1 +7-014-242-2583 9600/MNP - Flying Disks BBS +7-014-268-4911 2400/MNP 2:490/40.401 Goodwin BBS +7-014-269-1872 2400/MNP 2:490/20 Great White of Kopli +7-014-247-3943 2400 2:490/90 Hacker's Night System #1 +7-014-244-2143 9600/HST 2:490/1 Lion's Cave +7-014-253-6246 9600/HST 2:490/70 Mailbox for citizens of galaxy +7-014-253-2350 1200 2:490/30 MamBox +7-014-244-3360 19200/PEP 2:490/40 New Age System +7-014-260-6319 2400 2:490/12 Space Island +7-014-245-1611 2400 - XBase System +7-014-249-3091 2400/MNP 2:490/40.403 LUCIFER +7-014-347-7218 2400 2:490/11 MESO +7-014-343-3434 2400/MNP 2:490/60 PaPer +7-014-343-3351 1200 2:490/70 -----------------------------!----------------!----------!------------ ________________________________________________________________________ Dhanesh K. Samarasan, | Telephone: 617.666.3976 Building 5, Room 211, | Telefax: 617.253.2660 MIT, Cambridge, | Internet: dks@mit.edu MA 02139, USA | AppleLink: dks ________________________________________________________________________ From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 20:54:10 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 20:53:52 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 03:04:51 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!smsc.sony.com!george From: george@smsc.sony.com (George Maestri) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: FAX Numbers along with adresses ?? Message-Id: <1991Aug20.173032.6552@smsc.sony.com> Date: 20 Aug 91 17:30:32 GMT Organization: Sony Microsystems Corp, San Jose, CA Lines: 22 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO It seems like communications will become a problem. Maybe we should also start giving fax numbers as well as suface addresses. I'm sure there are more fax machines than net news sites in the SU. Faxes would also be much faster than snail mail. Also, if we could start collecting fax machine numbers from our friends in the SU, we could stay in touch, and distribute news of important events, much like the Chinese students did two years ago. I can offer my services to keep this list and distrubute it, if necessary. -George ================================================================= George Maestri george@smsc.sony.com Sony Microsystems Company {uunet,mips}!sonyusa!george 645 River Oaks Pkwy (408)944-4087 San Jose, CA 95134 fax#(408)954-1057 ================================================================= From cri.dk!news Wed Aug 21 20:54:44 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 20:54:26 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Wed, 21 Aug 91 03:04:56 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!hydra!fuug!mcsun!uunet!olivea!apple!well!rsl From: rsl@well.sf.ca.us (Roy Stuart Levin) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Coup "Can it happen here?" Message-Id: <26817@well.sf.ca.us> Date: 20 Aug 91 14:58:46 GMT References: <1991Aug19.202948.15530@sma2.uucp> Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA Lines: 17 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO That's what I've been trying to tell these people all along: hunting rights and shooting drug crazed burglars is not what the 2nd is all about: A police state and occupation by professional armies is what it was all about when the Founding Fathers wrote it, and today when we have a professional army instead of a universally drafted one, and a police state where the public has given incredible powers to Darryl Gates and his thugs. It can happen here, you'd better believe it. As a matter of fact, I would venture to prophecy that when they've got all the guns IT WILL HAPPEN HERE, since there will be nothing to stop them. By then the masses will be so brainwashed with the idea of "it's necessary for the police and military to have all this power to save us from chaos" that they will be asked to seize control. That's basically what's happening in Russia. A population unused to democracy but suffering economically and from social disorder would rather have order restored by despotism. Since that's all they've ever known anyway, its more familiar to them then the growing pains of democratization and a shift to a free market economy.